Censorship? There is no censorship!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by cronicler, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  2. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    i am not sure what you are trying for, but you must not realize that study agreed with me.

    and now from the article:
    now for the federal gap they talk about would come from their understanding of the GS system. the GS system is a set of 15 pay grades, broken up even further into 10 steps. so for a GS person, you ask them what their pay grade is, they will tell you GS X. you ask them how much they are paid, and now it becomes much different. how much a person is paid is determined on a fixed formula.
    (Rate + Step) x (Cost of Living) = pay rate

    the GS system is national, not local, and is based on industry. but that cost of living difference is how we went from 92% to 95% the article states for the difference.

    so your article effectively backs up what i said. thanks for providing a link you keep asking me for to back up my statements.

    men having larger hands than women is not a function of "gendered culture".

    and in the end, it is a choice. giving women greater opportunity only gets you so far, at some point it is up to women to take advantage of their greater opportunity
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  3. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011

    I wish I had more rads to give.

    There's always more updates than I ever could have posted, and breaches of journalistic ethics are uncovered left and right:


    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  4. Plautus

    Plautus Angry Preacher

    Nov 24, 2010
    It's probably a horrible idea to stick my hand in this fire since I just fled other forums for the express purpose of avoiding *this* controversy, but I might as well cautiously throw my hat into the ring.

    I think this whole issue, the name of which I'll avoid saying, is neither about "journalistic ethics" or "social justice"-- it's about accountability. Fundamentally, the problem is that you have a bunch of people not owning up to their mistakes. The reality of life is that we all fuck up. It's when we accept the innate capacity of all people to sin, to err, and to fail that we learn to forgive them and so forgive ourselves. This internet hate storm is a result of that inability to seek or grant forgiveness.

    For my part, I'm sick of being condescended to by "social justice warriors" who call me a bigot for not falling in line with their dogmatic views, by insinuating that not being a radical leftist somehow makes you evil. The sort of behavior I'm seeing pretty much everywhere is that people able to influence thought and sway discussion in public circles of internet culture all subscribe to the same secular, radical progressive doctrine and all have the same infantile worldview that makes them the scrappy rebels and everyone else the evil empire. It makes people into monoliths and dehumanizes the ideological other and it needs to stop.
  5. alec

    alec White heterosexual male Orderite

    May 21, 2003
    This thread needs to stop. You guys are wasting considerable portions of your short lives on a completely pointless debate. It doesn't matter that someone vatted most of its carcass, it still reeks in here. This thread is like Waiting for Godot by Beckett: he ain't showing up. Ever. The rest of the audience understood this ages ago and left the building, but you guys just don't get that he ain't coming, you're still seated, mouths wide open in anticipation, ready for the big surprise - that just ain't coming.

    Pfff. Talk about wasted energy. Talk about wasted time. Even animals know when to hunt and when to rest. You guys are chasing ghosts and running low on petrol. And it's becoming a rather sad thing to behold. Seriously. Someone needs to put this monster out of its misery.
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  6. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    No, it doesn't. That study is trying to minimize the pay gap through some specious methods that are not generally accepted (and ignore many things) and it still finds a pay difference for equal work. That's my point. You keep randomly putting out completely unsourced numbers, that are not supported by any scientific studies I have ever been able to find, and that are in fact flatly contradicted by every study I can find.

    Let's get to the point where they actually have equal opportunities before we stop trying to change things.
  7. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Nobody is saying that. We're just saying the problem's not exactly as big as you make it out to be.
  8. No Man

    No Man Gore Bag > Meat Bag

    Feb 20, 2014
    This is something I wanted to post for a while now. Politics (and by extension political discussions) have been known to have multiple crippling effects on one's health, both mental and physical, including, but not limited to: testicular shrinking, sore throat, substantial loss of mental capacity (in extreme cases leading to accidental glueing fingertips together), headaches, bad eyesight, hair loss, erectile dysfunction (worst of all) and unwittingly becoming a pawn of THEM (100% accurate facts). It is, in fact common knowledge, that having strong political opinions is the first step toward indoctrination. In order to stop yourself from becoming a mindless, soft-cocked slave with tiny balls, try occupying yourself with something utterly apolitical, whenever you think of seriously participating in a political discussion. Suggested activities include: playing Fallout (or, in extreme cases Fallout 3, but bear in mind - this is basically akin to torture), watching porn or solving differential equations. Remember, building a better, THEM-less future starts with you!

    This public service announcement was brought to you by your screen. It helps you with so much. Try showing it some affection once in a while.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  9. Gnarles Bronson

    Gnarles Bronson regular mutant

    Oct 30, 2011
    “They say life is too short. It’s way too long! And we’re filling it in with a lot of fake stuff…. There’s a lot of stuff. Maybe I’ll jump, maybe I won’t. We have to come up with things to fill in the time. There are old people sitting on cruise ships, doing crossword puzzles, just trying to finish it up. [Wale laughs.] They didn’t want all that time! But it’s there. That’s why there are a lot of no-talent celebrities, just to fill in the air. We’ve got too much time, too much space. Too many gigabytes.”

    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  10. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    no sander, you are unwilling to concede the result.

    by focusing on purely government employees on the GS pay system, it completely eliminates any sexism/misogyny. the people who actually control the promotions and who gets hired is NOT the people doing the job. now i understand you may not be familiar at all with how the GS government system works, so ill tell you how it works based on my Mom's 23.5 years as a government employee in the GS system.

    when my mom retired she was a GS 11 step 10. she had applied 1 year before for a GS 12 position. what she had to do was go to the OPM ( office of personnel management ) website and find the job listing. that starts the process and gave her a base score on a 100 point scale. when the job posting closes, the OPM office takes the applicants, and flat rejects anyone that does not make the cut-off point which is usually somewhere between 70-90 points. then the OPM office calls prospective employees and conducts a preliminary phone interview, and at the end schedules an in-office interview. the OPM person then takes the results of the interview, and grades them on strict criteria giving them points based on the requirements of the job and the person's answers and experience. then they pass any person who got a pass on both OPM interviews to the department head. this actual round of interviews by OPM has a scoring criteria maximum of up to 75. then the department head conducts their interview, and ability to grade people however they wish with a score of up to 25, but their notes for why they graded each person is submitted to OPM for final adjudication. for their final adjudication, they have 2 people review the notes from the department head and if needed adjust what they think the interviewee should have gotten independently of each other, submitted to the hiring person. keep in mind every step and subsequent step is handled by a different person within OPM who goes back and reviews every previous step to ensure everything was done properly and if any changes are needed, they add that to their notes and the final hiring person to agree or disagree with previous notes and any suggested modifications. then they take the 2 scores, ( interviews and resume ) and adds them up for each applicant. then the person with the most points gets hired.

    it is possible for the resume portion to exceed 100 points. bonus points are awarded for veteran status, disabled status, previous GS employee status, if you are a woman, and if you are a racial minority.

    my mom did not get that GS 12 position she applied for, she lost to a veteran. she found out later that if she had ever bothered to change her racial status over to american indian that she would have gotten it. she is 1/8 american indian, and i am 1/16th which is the lowest to claim minority status.

    thats why looking at GS system is considered one of the very few systems in the world immune to bias/sexism. so the question becomes, how do you end up with a 5% wage gap between women and men within their respective industry.

    so a brand new lawyer in georgia will start out as a GS 12 Step 0, same as new york, same as seattle. the only difference between them will be their cost-of-living bonus % will be different.

    so if promotions are immune to bias, and your advancement on the Steps is by pure length of time at that job, the only thing left is choices the employee makes. thats why they looked only at GS employees. that means women make choices that results in a 5% pay difference from men in a system designed to be immune to bias.

    you cant actually claim sexism even because if you are a woman or a minority, you are preferred for promotions. so even with a pro bias to women/minorities, they STILL end up making less in a system designed to be immune.

    now if you STILL want to make the claim that women make 5% less because of some cultural/societal bias/sexism within that framework, you truely are an idiot. no, really, you are a fucking idiot. at only 1 point does a persons judgement/opinion come into play, and it is 25 points out of 200. which can be nullified/adjusted. the other 175 points are all based on pure numbers.

    say a position requires using microsoft office suite. so what they will do is have someone grade their experience using the software. they will do like:
    0 unfamiliar ( 0-1 month )
    1 slightly familiar ( 2-6 months )
    2 familiar ( 7-12 months )
    3 very familiar ( 1-2 years )
    4 extremely familiar ( 3-5 years )
    5 professionally familiar ( 5+ years )

    for that criteria, whatever level of experience the person has is how many points they get, 0-5. no opinions, just facts.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  11. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Aside from the ludicrous claim that because there's a fairly rigorous system in place, structural bias is literally impossible (not supported by the most recent research), the fact that after all of those checks we are still seeing a five-point wage gap is a problem. Because, again, women (and men) do not make choices in a vacuum. But the fact that in the population as a whole the gender pay gap is much, much wider also shows that there's a lot more going on than "just" different choices. Finally, the fact that the industries that are male-dominated feature better compensation feature better compensation than those that are female-dominated is probably no coincidence, either -- jobs seen as "women's occupations" have historically always been more poorly compensated, precisely because women were doing them.

    But my point in citing that article wasn't about the GS, because it discusses a lot more. I was looking for the most supportive article of your claim that women make more than men in the same jobs I could find, given that it had to be at . There is no such research. Even the research that wants to explain away the pay gap still finds a pay gap. None of the research supports a claim that women earn more than men for the same job. And yet, you keep stating that as fact, never citing any supporting research, never showing where you got your statistics from. You've been caught peddling bullshit constantly, and yet you keep on keeping on. Forever and ever and ever.
  12. Gnarles Bronson

    Gnarles Bronson regular mutant

    Oct 30, 2011
    I'm sure I'm a misogynist for saying this, but it made sense to me when I heard it and I'd really like someone to explain to me why I'm wrong (sorry if this has already been mentioned):

    Making more money increases a man's likelihood to reproduce, while doing the opposite for women -- well educated professional women typically have fewer children. So, being as the desire to reproduce is one of the four or so strongest base urges in nature, this is a motivation factor that women don't have, which could serve to explain the 5% (or whatever it is) wage gap. At the moment I am planning on entering law school next year, but, honestly, I wouldn't bother if I weren't concerned about attracting a mate.
  13. BigBoss

    BigBoss Your Local Scrub

    Dec 24, 2012
    Well, you guys can't say I didn't tell you so, shit.

    But the fact the mods thought they could just ignore it, well, that's hilarious. Guess NMA created their own version of the Patriot Act.

    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  14. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    that link is quite... well pointless.

    women receive raises more often than men

    women receive promotions more often than men

    they say the unexplained pay-gap was due to a few factors:

    1) for the new jobs with higher GS classification within a job family tended to be filled by males dis proportionally.

    this is quite funny as OPM themselves determines who gets hired for jobs. the higher GS classification jobs within a job family require more experience and educational background and management experience. so the OPM is saying that women are less qualified than men due to experience/education/management, even with factoring in a female presumptive bias. if women are less qualified for higher GS job postings than men even after the bias in favor of women, that is not discrimination or sexism. that tells me women are applying for higher jobs they do not qualify for more often than men. maybe because they know they will get their "bonus points" and that would get them the job.

    2) make sure everyone knows the GS pay scale

    its public fucking information. GS and Step information is publicly available. so is the cost of living information.

    3) make sure commands that hire people know to request the +1 pay step equally when justified

    so many possibilities. ill leave this one alone

    4) tell agencies that dont really use OPM hiring process to be more like OPM

    and then the rest is better data sourcing for analytics, admit they need to study more than just professional job family, create programs that favor women and minorities even more than current system. other than the part time thing where they talk about the need to possibly turn manager positions into part-time to allow more promotion opportunities for part time employees.

    so, now here is 2 stories from guys at my work.

    Guy #1:
    makes 73k a year. his wife was a reading teacher with a bachelors in english literature and minor in education. she was making 39k a year. they decided to have a kid, and was looking around for child care and they found that for both of them working and getting day care it was going to cost about 26k a year. after discussing it, they decided that she would quit her job at least until the kid could go to school on his own if they didnt have a second child. she could also do home schooling until that point.

    ill be sure to let him know when i see him that you think he is a sexist fucking pig and perpetuating cultural/societal sexism for making her quit her job rather than him quitting his job. or shelling out almost the entirety of her paycheck in child care. you know, because you said so.

    Guy #2:
    makes 89k a year. his wife was a 1st grade teacher making 47k a year. before they got married she told him that she wanted to be a stay at home mom just like her mom. he said ok, and married her anyway, and they popped out their first kid.

    ill be sure to let him know that he is a sexist motherfucker for letting his wife quit and not forcing her to work and reinforcing cultural/societal sexism because you said so.

    Guy #3:
    makes 65k a year. his wife is an office secretary for a doctors office making 35k a year, now making 25k a year. shortly after they got married, she said she wanted to have a kid. so they popped out a kid. after having the kid she decided that she would go to part time rather than full time to help care for the kid. he said ok.

    ill be sure to let him know that he is a sexist motherfucker for letting his wife change from full time to part time and reinforcing cultural/societal sexism because you said so.

    ill be sure to let all of them know they are the ones that should have quit their jobs ( there is no part time at my office ) and either take a part time job somewhere else, or just become stay at home dads.

    ill be sure to tell everyone that women who quit their jobs or go part time are sexist bitches that are just reinforcing cultural/societal discrimination against women and not because it is their choice.

    oh shit, victim blaming women.


    ok, new idea! ill blame every man i know that women change to part time or quit their jobs when they have kids and turn down promotions so as to not require more hours/responsibility that its mens fault for reinforcing and accepting womens choices. you know, because sexism and societal/cultural discrimination. and because they pick mates that have successful enough jobs to even have that as an option for their women.

    its mens fault!
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  15. BigBoss

    BigBoss Your Local Scrub

    Dec 24, 2012

    I got it.
  16. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
  17. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I'd say this Godfrey Elfwick guy is a troll, because no living person could be so pretentious and stupid, but then I know better than to underestimate the stupidity of people.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  18. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Yeah there's people trolling everywhere in this, too juicy a controversy to pass up. I think people confirmed the GNAA doxxed people, prominent supporters and detractors of gamergate both. You don't want to know what the GNAA is though, trust me. Hold on to your faith in humanity while you can.
  19. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Guess you're not big on reading stuff? There is no censorship, as this very thread shows. I might disagree with TheWesDude, but eliminating the GamerGhazi thread actually gave way for a more on topic, focused, and not completely hopeless discussion.
  20. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Depends on what one´s definition of censorship is. Some would say that moving a very notable, ongoing and engaging discussion to the forum for disused and locked threads, which is not publicly visible as I understand, falls under it. Of course there´s not necessarily something wrong with that, because as we all know this forum´s owner is the end all decider of rules and regulations, as enforced by the administrators as they see fit. Freedom of speech as defined by law is only appliable to the government, and not privately owned websites. But one´s ability to say what one wants is indeed curbed somewhat under a certain liberally defined definition of the term `freedom of speech`. That is, we´re no longer allowed to post in the original thread, so in that sense our freedom of speech has been limited. Of course to say then, that NMA has no freedom of speech whatsoever would be false, since it has quite a bit.

    I also can't say this thread is better than the previous one. Except in TheWesDude's posts. You rock, buddy.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014