Crane flies and God (and me)

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by zegh8578, Sep 14, 2015.

  1. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    There are many things that disprove a sentient creator, for those interested in that. I am allready an atheist, but I still find these things interesting - such as our unfortunate ability to inhale food, and die while eating. There is also our ability to trip on our own legs, while trying to escape danger, for then to endanger ourselves/die.
    Owls get to turn their heads all around, but humans don't, despite the fact that we turn to look around ourselves all the damn time - and so on.

    Behold - the crane fly!


    Have you ever observed one of these critters!?

    My own observations begun to accumulate, little by little, as I live in a terrain that allows these bastards to come tumbling in my window all the time. And yes, tumble. They don't fly - they tumble.
    Here are my observations:
    1. They seem unable to fly much higher than a metre or two, and I personally believe this is due to a complete lack of senses, rendering them "blind" if they fly too far off the ground. By staying near a wall or floor, they can retain some control of direction and movement. Unlike for example a wasp, which will fly in deliberate directions, the crane fly seems to tumble around on a hit-and-miss principle, often tumbling in lil circles, locking themselves in corners, etc.
    2. They regularily fly into me, into my face, into my fucking mouth - and I'm not talking about that unfortunate fly that got swallowed up cus I'm on a bicycle - no - I'm talking about me simply sitting here, breathing, and the crane fly just tumbling into my mouth, GODDAMN - there are no other animals that do this! At least outside of accidents or some kind of deliberate symbiosis. The crane fly is simply too devoid of ANY forms of self-preservation to even recognize that it should not randomly tumble itself into other creatures mouths and bellies.
    3. Probably an extension of 2, but they have absolutely no fear/flight mechanism. They seem not to care if they live or die. Spiders are crafty survivors, they will even seek out dark, shadowy corners, and sprint for hiding. Some spiders will try to fight you. The other day I saw a wasp falcon-grab a big fly mid-air, and fly away with it. That's dynamic! That's a will to live! The crane fly does nothing to prevent being killed, you can litterally squash it slowly. It will sit there, and it will probably lack the neural connections to comprehend that it is being squashed.

    So, I got curious - what the hell do these bugs even do?

    I researched them.

    I shouldn't have.

    They do: Nothing.
    They eat: Nothing.

    I mean... they do copulate. Or they would not exist. But that's it.
    They have a digestive track, a mouth, they CAN eat, and they seem to prefer sweet nectars and such, like most insects, but they can exist for a lifetime of theirs, without ever eating a damn thing.

    A crane fly will live a life, and not know what food means.

    Sometimes they can drink some water.



    Sometimes!

    So, yeah, another one of God's little practical jokes, I imagine!
    Parasaurolophus had to go with the flood, sinful being, but the crane fly, nono keep the crane fly! Tumbling around into mouths, existing solely for the purpose of mockery of existence, crane flies are practically gravel that can move. They are so utterly pointless, it makes me wonder if we do indeed have much more to learn about what it means to be alive, to be concious of ourselves
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Arguing with a creationist is like playing chess with a pigeon, it knocks over all your pieces, shits all over the board, and then struts away with his head held high as if he was victorious. - Anonymous
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  3. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Are we going to have the religion discussion? Because if that's the case I'm a solipsist, and as far as I know all of you can be creations of my imagination so I can discuss and argue with different aspects of myself.

    And yes, the crane fly totally looks like something my twisted mind would create.

    ;)
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  4. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Well just the fact that we need to breath in poison to survive while at the same time the same poison slowly kills us should be more than enugh to discard the idea of an intelligent designer behind life, unless you also want to interpret it as evil and trollish.
     
  5. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Well, as much as the crane fly invites deeper thought (the bastard!!!) I am genuinely just frustrated with the absolute pointlessness of the little beast... and a tiny bit envious :I
    But by all means, with all the politics-war discussions allready unfolding :D

    The Lord works in mysterious ways
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  6. BigBawss

    BigBawss Wizard of the Hood

    110
    Aug 22, 2015
    That was actually funny. Made me laugh.

    Also, did you put this up because my religion thread? Did I make you think?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2015
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Richard Dawkins made me think if I am honest. He is in my opinion to Biology what Stephen Hawking is to physics. It made me think from where he actually gets all of his remarkable patience and restraint to not punch any of the creationists in their face after the first 10 min. of the discussion. His patience would almost convince me to believe that there are really divine beings ... almost.

    No, to be more serious. Religion doesn't mean much for me if I am honest. I would not call my self an atheist in the sense that I fight against god or the idea of divine beings. But I see religion merely as a spiritual step in our evolution that we have to overcome if we want to achieve truly remarkable things as species. Neils degrass Tyson has a very great video about that point arguing about the so called golden age of Islam. One can only imagine what 1 Billion Muslims would have achieved if this golden age never stopped because of fundamentalism 1000 years ago. Arabian philosophers and scholars reached for the stars and breakthroughs in mathematics, medicine and many other areas while we Europeans lived for the most part like savages. Or imgaine what 6 Billion people could achieve!

    Don't get me wrong! Religion isn't in my opinion evil though. People do evil things, not ideas or ideologies. And technology and even Science can be misused for bad things, no arguing from me! And as many scientists have shown, you can be religious AND a scientist, no problem. But I don't see religion as concept to be something for the future. It just doesn't work with a modern form of government, and definitely not with a democracy as we know it. A theocracy with one religion on the top will always lead to disaster and stagnation - in my opinion. And one of the many reasons in my opinion is because religions have inherent flaws in their core principles. They leave to much room for speculation and interpretation. Religion might have been a necessity in our past, I won't dispute that, but I think the future will throw great challenges at our species as whole that require a very different mindset to tackle them.

    Secularization, the declaration of Human Rights and the Scientific Method. Those are in my opinion THE three greatest invention of our species. Not electricity, nuclear energy, (modern) medicine, art etc. But separating the spiritual world from science, research and facts from our (severely limited) senses - like with secularization, an easy to understand and more importantly easy to follow set of rules that counts for all and every human being as the only true and feasible way to run a peaceful society - like with the declaration of Human rights and the most important of all, the Scientific Method which probably is the reason for most if not all of our modern inventions. The last 100-150 years have seen the fastest advance in technology for our species and we have discovered more than ever before, in almost every scientific field looking beyond places and frontiers that no one ever thought possible.

    And I think it has a reason why at least today most of the research and inventions happen in places where religion is playing only if anything a minor role. In science classes it has even no place at all. It should make us think at least. And eventually consider that the human species would do much better without religion. We simply don't need it anymore as source for inspiration, rule book for our society and all the other things that religion did in the past. Now you have universities, governments based on constitutions, free access to information and much more.

    I personally find it frightening that 40% of the US Americans for example would rather believe Angels to be true than the theory of Evolution by Darwin. Or that the Universe started with the Big Bang. I seriously don't want to take away the rights of people to search for their spiritual fulfillment. There might be people that have a need for that. I respect that. But you should never close your self to reason and logic. To arguments that make sense. Not just from the way how they are represented but also from the evidence. And yet, there are people like creationist that simply stop with any kind of logic argument for one reason. It's not what the Bible says.

    Those are at least my 5 cent about religion.

    Though I guess this topic was made more as a humoristic intend to highlight the stupidity of the Crane Flies. And the OP's frustration that they found some kind of liking on the inside of his mouth rather than to really explain that there must be some kind of creator or divine being with a very strange sense of humor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2015
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  8. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Religion clearly cannot-not happen. We observe it as a near-universal trait of humanity, so clearly, it is a mechanic that almost has to happen

    Ricky Gervais made a simplistic but good point in the movie "The Invention of Lying", where all people seem to only communicate in blatant truths, his mother is dying, and he - the protagonist - is the only human capable of telling un-truths. He tells her about heaven and afterlife, to bring her comfort on her death-bed.

    Obviously, this is both true, and like I said - quite simplistic. Religion is much more complex, and we have to understand that it pre-dates humans and human reasoning.
    The very first hominids to look at the moon, look at Venus, and wonder "what IS that!?", the first hominids to look at the sun, and think "my god... "

    If we back-track, religion tends to start out with animism, that is, the belief that a certain spirit resides in various aspects of nature - for example, strength resides in the bear - resiliance resides in the deer, cleverness resides in the fox, and so on. Not even physically, but the animals represent it by evidently expressing these features: Bears are strong, foxes are crafty. Animism, in that sense, is "true", it is an observation.

    The next step is to take all these features, and give them human representatives. This seems to coincide with the advent of civilization (which in turn coincides with many other inventions, agriculture, alcohol, metal smelting, brick building, etc)
    The very first such representatives can be seen in Mesopotamia, where city states would house a king/temple dedicated to a particular feature, for example one (Can't remember which name) city-state that was responsible for grain production - and "coincidentally" housed the temple of the patron of agriculture, as well as supposedly being the place where the actual god of agriculture once lived, in flesh and blood.

    Over time, the issue becomes more and more complex. Gods are consolidated, and the notion of separate gods sometimes become synonymous with chaos and unrule (thereof the bad treatment of Babylon in Christianity)

    /my 5 cents
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2015
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  9. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    I find physics dudes should discuss physics and biologists biology. It's like when vegans quote Einstein in vegetarianism, what is he, a nutritionist?

    Dawkins and all his "god doesn't exist" talk don't impress me at all, as far as I'm concerned I have to assume he exists as much as I have to assume god does. He brings absolutely nothing new to the table, and all his rhetoric can be summarized in "I can't measure god, so religion is bullshit", and using evolution discoveries to "proof" religious writings are wrong. I mean, dude, I figured as much when I was an 8 y/o without your help, have fun arguing with close-minded religion nuts tho. And "religious" people that actually go and try to argue with him are just as stupid as he is.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  10. AskWazzup

    AskWazzup Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2008
    It's the least assholeish insect there is, as far as i'm concerned. The thing is like insect jesus.
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Seriously? I mean, Seriously? Ignoring everything In the face of evidence, hard evidence I mean, logic, reasoning and everything that is sane just because you feel the Bible/Quaran/Torah/big-bad-voodo said it? You have to agree that people which think like that are at least a we bit nuts. Even if you're a spiritual/religious person.

    I mean 40% of the Americans seem to accept the genesis as valid explanation rather than the evolution. In the 21st century. So what Dawkins (and many many many many other lesser known scientists do) is actually important in my opinion. You might not be impressed with it, but it should make you think. Like I said, nothing against religion or religious people. As long as they can accept that science is well, most of the time correct. Simply because science is made by real people for the real world and the living. A book that is so open to interpretation can and should never be the benchmark for any modern society. And that is why every single constitution and decleration that is worth it's salt gives you religious liberty.

    But now we have for the first time in our history as species actually the tools to get away from it. There is no more reason to use the invisible man in the sky or the spirits in the earth to explan what happens around us.

    One has only to look at 100 years of science and research to get that idea. You don't have to abandon your religious belief. There are many Scientists that have some. But they know that religion is not the right tool to explain the world and how the world works.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2015
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  12. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Dinosaur expert Gregory S. Paul wrote a book about religion, where he argues that a "carefree" modern existence "automatically" reduces religion - for example, hospitals and medicine replace prayer, and this is indeed true, with the exception of deliberate emphasis on religion for political purposes. He doesn't talk down on it though, but simply explains the mechanics behind it, which makes sense.

    Richard Dawkins is just condescending, and he writes and preaches to the choir, only fellow "dawkinists" come to listen to his speeches, the whole thing is a huge circle-jerk, with the occasional moron religious nut coming to argue with him with the same idiotic points as always, inflating his ego endlessly.
    I'm not saying Richard Dawkins makes the wrong points, I'm saying that I quit bothering people with such stuff when I was a kid, and he should too. It makes no sense to break down someones religion, just to feel superior about oneself, since religion is so fundamental to many.
    To me, Christianity and Jesus is just silly, but what on earth am I gonna rub that in some Christian persons face for? What has he ever done to me? Of course, if he starts it, that's another matter :D
    Also, if someone willingly invites me to debate, then I'll oblige, but it's that... hurtful condescending attitude I don't like, as well as the pointless circle-jerk, selling "God is a lie!"-type books to a bunch of fellow atheists :roll:

    Crni, see my Gregory Paul comment :M You are right, modern life will replace many aspects of religion, while also leave many intact, such as "meaning of life" "why are we here", not to mention guidelines for life and behavior, and inspirational stories.
     
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    But that's exactly my point, again more than 40% of the americans believe in it. You can't tell me that this isn't a frightening thing for a society that calls it self modern. Those kind of people are expected eventually to run the show. I expect more from someone who has the intention to run for the supreme court or senate or what ever. Because it will be those people making decisions ABOUT science without actually BELIEVING in Science. I am not talking about that individual sitting in his home with his beliefs. Most of the time it's not the scientists trying to get into religion. Most of the time it is religion trying to get into science. Like when parents don't want their children to be taught anything about evolution in school and demand it to be replaced with creationism ...
     
  14. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    You gotta wonder why do people even cling to believing in a god when they start picking and choosing what to believe from the bible. If you basically ignore more than half of the book and it's fuckd up death cult teachings why even believe the biggest assertion of it? People say that the bible teaches good values but more often than not it actually teaches a lot of xenophobia, and misoginy. But whatever, to each their own.
     
  15. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    That is an example of religion pushed by politics though, which I consider a sabotage of the natural course of modernity/science replacing prayer and beliefs.
    Religion is very practical in terms of "mind control", because it requires to instill in the population a disregard for good evidence.
    America is a good example, because it is a country so modern, everyone has Wikipedia, everyone has access to science, but the population easily disregards evidence as "your opinion". These attitudes come from childhood, and how children are raised is typically a matter of culture, which in turn is a matter of politics (guidelining the population)

    In short - if you can have a population who believes in stupid shit, it is easy to make blatant claims about foreign places (in case you want to invade them, for instance) or about research (such as climate change being a matter of personal faith)

    I'm being a bit blunt about it here, but describing the rough terms of it.
     
  16. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Man, they believe life has a meaning and that when they die they go to a wonderful place with none of the hideous thing that happen here on earth. Why do you want to ruin it for them, dude, that's just mean.

    And Dawkins should make me think? Think of what? He has nothing, and I mean nothing that adds or reveals anything else, that sheds any light for people who is not enclosed in dogmatic beliefs, nor new knowlodge whatsoever that I cannot find by just reading other (often better in their field) authors. Dawkins is just a guy who writes books and goes on TV bashing on religious people (no problem with that as long it is those fanatics who bash on the none relgious), but I might as well watch Oprah, it adds absolutely nothing new to our understanding of the universe. Boring.

    If you want to change everyone to think the way you do then you are just another mormon/jehovah's witness knocking at my door only under a different flag. And if you find it frigthening that others do not share your point of view then you have more in common with them than you think.

    For me it's not all either black or white, the only way to get around the fact that we are not sure if there is an external reality or not is to assume it, and from there on in, if I want to be true to myself I will have to doubt everything, even all scientific discoveries.

    "A reality is just what we tell each other it is. Sane and insane could easily switch places, if the insane were to become the majority. You would find yourself locked in a padded cell, wondering what happened to the world."
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2015
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You know what? You're actually right. Why should it bother me? And actually it doesn't really. Why should it. 65% of the Germans believe in the Evolution and I would say it is one of the reasons that make Germany a more sensible place in the world, at least if compared to the US. Our Chancellors has even a fucking Science Degree, in physics - she's still doing dump shit, but at least you could say that she should know it better and that she's not doing dump shit in the name of god ...

    However, when you have someone ruling over you with using dip-shit sentences like, "our god is stronger than theirs!" or when presidential candidates feel stronger affiliated to the earth being only 10 000 years old than I at least think that this should raise more than just eye-brows. But how could that even happen when a large part of the population beliefs the exact same thing ... see the problem isn't that someone wants to end up with the invisible man in the sky and enjoying a paradise. Let them! Someone gets comfort from it? Awesome! I have NO problem with that. At all. What I have a problem with is when such people start to meddle with science, cutting funding, changing schools - or trying it! In the name of god and the Bible. Because children have to be taught an "alternative" to Evolution, as like Evolution would be wrong or something. There is a point where belief simply has no place. One of those is the classroom. The other is politics.

    Not every creationist is like that, of course. The majority of them don't run around forcing everyone to believ in the same thing they do. But is it really that hard to see the connection here? There are enough politicians in the US follwing their ideas with the intention to eventually rule the nation. And their idea of the world and how it works is close to the idea of the Easter bunny or Santa Claus. Those people than decide about what is right and wrong - see drone strikes, which wars are worth to fight for and which project deserves funding or not. Decisions that MATTER. Decisions that should not be based on religious ideas and concepts. And no one can tell me that those do not influence people one way or another. If someone's a die hard creationist.

    Maybe some should try to remember why the Congress and Abraham Lincoln actually signed for the National Academy of Science. The USA was once leading in the fields of invention, research and education. And they are close to loosing that, fast. I does not take a genious to see why that is a bad thing in the long run. And I would not be surprised if a lot of it has to do with the fact that more and more religious beliefs and ideas are making their way in to politics and many other areas.

    But, again you are right. Why should I care.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2015
  18. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Since this is now a thread about religion, one of my most interesting discussions was with an ex of my brothers, she's Jewish, and the only Jew I've met (they're rare in Norway), and she challenged for a debate about evolution. I am reluctant, because of aforementioned reasons, but I notice that she - as many religious people - got it all wrong, and she found it ironical that I would be non-religious, while believing that animals would "morph" magically from shape to shape

    I took to explaining the most basic mechanics of it, for example imagining bottle-neck evolution as a swimming pool filling up with water, and people of different height in that pool. Let's say the people in there represent a species, and the avg height is 1.75, but the tallest individuals are 2+.
    The water fills up to 1.8 metres, everyone shorter than this drowns.
    Now the avg height of the species is 1.85

    Ergo, the species has evolved from averaging 1.75 to 1.85 in height, through bottle-neck evolution. Other forms of evolution, such as sexual selection exist as well, and I briefly described them.
    She told me I actually made sense, and she simply incorporated this mechanic into her Jewish world view.
     
  19. AskWazzup

    AskWazzup Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2008
    Apes are egoistic shits, thinking that someone has some kind of a plan for an absolutely inconsequential spec of dust in the universe, above all else.

    I think, that the idea, that we were once a part of some star that exploded and ejaculated the matter that make us today, is much cooler.
     
  20. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    "The plan" is what bother me the most about Christianity in particular, that it's all part of the plan.
    Not just babies dying, and boy-scouts burning up in plane crashes, God all "aaand 200 airplane victims iiinto the pot" *stir stir*

    THAT BETTER BE SOME EPIC FUCKIN PLAN!!!

    But space itself

    Let us just go along with Christianity, let's just humour it... Oceans are made by God, for us to sail them. This includes Neptune. This includes the liquid surface of the Sun, guys, better get focused at work with how we are supposed to SAIL on the SUN.

    Solid surfaces are solid, because God intends us to walk upon them. This includes the solid surface of certain neutron-stars, with gravity enough to absolutely shatter every hint of material. Man, God and his challenges D:

    Not only that, but the magnitude of celestial objects, ALL of them are "meant" for human colonization. The "plan" of God is therefore, apparently, for humans to colonize every inch of surface matter in the entirety of space-time, present, future AND past!
    O_-