Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by Korin, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    I wouldn't say half, but the game certainly falls apart in the final "chapter" and ending boss-fight. Some of the puzzle-spell thing near the end is ok though.
     
  2. DevilTakeMe

    DevilTakeMe Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    463
    Sep 12, 2011
    The explanation made to me about Elder Scrolls "Boss Fights" tend to boil down to this:

    In Morrowind, you beat on a stationary target while Dagoth Ur yelled at you.

    In Oblivion, you lit a glorified lamp.

    In Skyrim, you just use a duck call over and over again while everyone beats on the "Boss."
     
  3. Nark

    Nark Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 6, 2008
    Well I never played either in Morrowind so I didn't know the specifics. Just Imperial (because it was new to Elder Scrolls) and Dunmer. I still prefer Daggerfall for most things, but I do enjoy Morrowind's non-randomly generated landscape.
     
  4. agiel7

    agiel7 First time out of the vault

    94
    Oct 3, 2010
    Got my hands on my own copy. Game certainly looks pretty and I do see that the game has quite some scope, however...

    The leveling. is. FUCKED.

    My god. Even though I abhorred the karma system and storytelling in Fallout 3 with all my being (more so with the former), I thought they did a good job making leveling up based on experience. However, in Skyrim I can definitely see how if you played around with things like Smithing and Alchemy a little too much for your own good to the point the game thinks you've neglected your combat skills, that guy could run into a situation where the game becomes unbeatable with the monster scaling.

    Then there's Speech. Since in these games you level up skills by using them and some of the speech checks you need to have a certain amount of points in Speech, and, well, you can see the Catch-22 there. I suppose you could level it up by selling crap and getting trained, but selling stuff would take so goddamned long and I need to consider that I'm buying training for Destruction, Enchantment, and Alchemy (three of my focus skills).
     
  5. Kyuu

    Kyuu Insert Awesome Title Here

    Jul 19, 2007
    What? Yeah, it's a reaction, but it's a totally retarded reaction. First, the little girl says (very calmly), "Oh, what happened?", then turns away and stands still, staring into space in a random direction. The guards then run up and just stand there, with no reaction, for a good 10 or 20 seconds while the players twirls the body around in the air (god I still hate crappy ragdoll physics), before finally reacting. And their reaction would be appropriate... if it was a body sitting there not being twirled around in the air and dragged across the ground.

    Then finally, they ask the player why he's standing(??) near a corpse with his weapon drawn... and then, quite calmly, say "Oh well ok just be good from now on" and that's that.

    I dunno, maybe it's just me but the whole thing was awkward and completely unbelievable, which has been the issue with Bethesda's attempts at AI since Oblivion. I never felt the same playing Morrowind, despite the primitive AI that didn't react to much of anything except outright aggression. Maybe my suspension of disbelief was just higher with that game?
     
  6. fedaykin

    fedaykin Vault Fossil

    Jul 15, 2007
    The good about Skyrim: Beth has finally realized that they're not good at making RPGs, so they simplified the system to be more FPS-like.

    The bad: Beth still hasn't learned to make good user interfaces. That thing is just fucking horrible. They should've looked at the interface mods for Oblivion and learned from them. It still blows my mind how some random modder guy on the internet can create a better interface than someone who does this for a living for a very successful game developer.
     
  7. Black Feather

    Black Feather Mildly Dipped

    529
    Nov 10, 2010
    Just grind up on the non-leveling unnamed Animals and Bandits ... and with the magic you can level up without killing, in fact i always loved that about TES.

    Nope. The system looks dumbed down at first glance, but actually you have to specialize your character through perks, which is imho a much deeper character progression than previous TES. In previous TES, the characters were different at the start of the game (attributes etc), but in the end everyone had everything on 100 anyway, in Skyrim it's the other way around.

    Oh and i like the clairvoyance spell. Seems a bit more authentic if a divining spell shows the way than a damn marker on the map.
     
  8. aenemic

    aenemic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jun 4, 2008
    well, the thing is that the type of AI you seem to expect, where the NPC's react realistically to any action the player takes, simply doesn't exist. it would be wonderful if it did. to a certain extent, of course. a lot can be said about Bethesda's naive way of writing dialogue, and especially one-liners, but that's a different matter. at least they've made the NPC's reacting towards a dead body, and not only that - the guards will question you if you seem like a suspect.

    NPC's taking into consideration exactly how the player moves and interacts with objects is pretty unrealistic. it can probably be done, but I can imagine the resources needed are simply way out of proportion to even be considered. and for it to work realistically, there'd have to be so many scripted events and loss of control of the player character that it'd probably be a real drag after a while. just think of all the ways you as a player could affect the dialogue and actions of the NPC's in a scenario like that in the video - it's simply impossible and unrealistic to expect that every possible outcome would be taken into consideration. so for the scenario to play out more realisticaly, it'd have to be more of a scripted event where the player can't move or act.

    Bethesda's AI is notoriously bad, but in Skyrim it's pretty apparent that they've at least tried to improve upon it and learn from some of the most obvious mistakes of Oblivion. who knows, in time they might even be able to realize their goal of a truly "radiant AI". but in such a free-form game as Skyrim, there will always be players who will try to break the AI and take advantage of it, and there will always be ways to do so.

    I agree. it might feel simplified at first, and in some ways it even is. but only in good ways if you ask me. sure, attribute scores would be nice to have, but the way they worked in Morrowind and Oblivion is really one of the biggest issues I had with those games. it was way too easy to take advantage of and it was way too easy to fuck up your build if you concentrated on the wrong skills and didn't train your attibute scores correctly. they could have kept them as static scores slightly affecting skills and other stats or something.

    as for the skills, they're not perfect but I love how they work now. perks make all the difference between character builds and you really have to plan your character ahead. there's still room to screw up your build, if for example only levelling enchanting and alchemy like someone said above. but if you do, you honestly only have yourself to blame. this isn't an economy/trades simulator, it's a game with tons of fighting so you better lay some focus on your fighting abilities. and the perks really give purpose to focusing on certain skills instead of trying to max everything. and lastly, I don't actually know what the level cap is if there even is one, but I doubt you can take every perk there is so you're gonna have to make choices.

    in the end, the system rewards you for picking a "class" and sticking to it, and in a way punishes you for dabbling in areas you might not need. the previous games rather punished you for picking the wrong combination of primary/secondary skills and forced you to train skills you weren't even interested in to get high attribute increases.
     
  9. sea

    sea Vault Senior Citizen

    Oct 5, 2009
    There is apparently a "soft" level cap of 50, but you can still level more if you grind everything like crazy up to about 70 (skills become much harder to raise at that point). Eventually you'll have everything at 100, but you'll still only have enough perks to max out 1/3 of the skill trees at most.
     
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Actually exactly this is somewhat the problem.

    Imagine you get to smithing/forging, persuasion, stealth and lock picking raising those stats to a high level which are not directly combat related like magic and the fighter skills (swords, hammers etc.) leading to a faster "level" up where you end in situations where some enemies have the level for a "usual" level 20 player. So you can somewhat screw up your character if you don't know about this problem.
     
  11. UncannyGarlic

    UncannyGarlic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 6, 2008
    Welcome to what happened to my first game of Oblivion, only I heavily leveled the speech skill. Yeah, that was fun. I personally don't find their experience/progression system fun at all. It sounds far cooler than it plays to level up skills by doing.

    One of the big things that is generally said about TES games is that you can "Go anywhere and do anything!" The sandbox element is presented as more of a focus than it actually is. It's not anyone's fault for taking Beth and their supporters at their word if they don't know any better. It's also a problem that is easily fixed by Beth, all they need to do is make enemies scale based on the sum of your combat skills or your highest combat skill.
     
  12. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Hello all,

    I probably should go through the various pages of this topic to make up the general mindset but my question is simply this; can people here recommend Skyrim?

    I am really looking for a game in which I can spend several hours into after my disappointment with Halo CEA but the thing is; I am not really a fantasy fan.
    I prefer science fiction games but there hasn't been any release that really appeals to me, hence why I am looking into other genres.
     
  13. PainlessDocM

    PainlessDocM Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 5, 2010
    I do, this game gets perfect scores and when someone mentions or shows some flaws he or she gets ridiculed, is asked to compare it with other titles or is simply told that mods will iron out the ugly parts. How is this acceptable in a full priced 2011 release that gets hailed for its "advanced Radiant AI" while in reality it seems to be little more than an improved version of Oblivion/ F3 in that regard? I'm not saying this game doesn't have any merits (or that criticism is met with ridicule on this particular forum) but I don't understand the seemingly blind praise and apologetic attitude it receives across the board.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOY-_-WTZyI[/youtube]

    Am I insane for expecting something better than that?
     
  14. aenemic

    aenemic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jun 4, 2008
    the AI in that video is bad on a whole different level than in the other video. I responded to the AI in that video alone. in general I agree with what you posted above, the games don't deserve the high scores they keep getting and it's annoying how people can look the other way when it comes to bad AI and bugs just because it's a Bethesda game.
     
  15. Ohaimerk

    Ohaimerk modoc, den, grave Orderite

    Mar 30, 2009
    I guess you're saying it's great on a social level but terrible on a combat level then?
     
  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Or they could simply make a proper RPG where talking actually can be used effectively. - Diplomacy if you want so. You probably will not be able to finish the game that way because you will need Friends to do the "dirty" work for you. But a character with high speech skills should be good in making friends no ;) sadly such things require inteligent writting and even more inteligent quest design. Both things Bethesda never learned in the last 10 years.
     
  17. aenemic

    aenemic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jun 4, 2008
    I never said anything was great in the first place. I simply didn't mind how the NPC's reacted to the dead body and I explained why I don't expect them to behave like sentient beings.
     
  18. Ohaimerk

    Ohaimerk modoc, den, grave Orderite

    Mar 30, 2009
    Got it. When I go to the store and kill an old lady I'll expect a comment from security about my weapon as I wave the body in their faces :P
     
  19. Makagulfazel

    Makagulfazel Adept Bungler of Things Orderite

    Jun 14, 2007
    :shrug:

    The game's not perfect. Here's my list of things I think are neat-o compared to its predecessors:
    - Enemies hide behind the things in the environment if you try to ghey them with arrows from an unreachable place.
    - Enemies will switch targets if they can't reach their primary target easily.
    - Difficulty is awesome. Level 38 and I still get whopped by some enemies. Actually gives me an incentive to buy/make different types of gear(potions, armor, jewelry) for different occasions.
    - No longer has wikipedia-esque dialogue.
    - Dragon fights/animations are smooth.
    - Perks allow for different character builds in the end game.
    - Better NPC/Quest reactions(Hired thugs, couriers giving messages from people that are upset with choices I made earlier in the game).
    - No moonwalk diagonal running(hehe).

    There's stuff I don't like: Should run better on crossfire 5850s, fuckin' UI functionality, weird bugs(Couldn't hit or provoke 1 dragon, NPCs teleporting). But all-in-all, it's a pretty amazing game. I was worried a bit about it being similar to Oblivion, but it's painfully obvious that they learned some lessons from their time developing Fallout 3 and have improved as developers even further. I have no qualms with it receiving 9-10 reviews from critics and users alike.
    I would spend more time nitpicking if they were becoming worse, not better, at creating games. Aenemic has penned my exact thoughts on the AI. If you exploit the fact that the AI won't have human-like intellect, what the hell do you expect? Name -one- game that can do what you guys expect from Skyrim.

    EDIT:
    I have had 3 Crash-to-desktops and once all the trees were a blue color with a blobish shape. I'm using Xtreme-G drivers, though, so going to try the official to see if that can help with my graphical problems.
     
  20. aenemic

    aenemic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jun 4, 2008
    thank you, someone actually gets my point.

    on a whole I agree, it's such a step up from Oblivion that I think they deserve some praise and I prefer to speak of the positives of the game so that people may at least try it before judging. that said, Bethesda need to hire new writers. seriously. even this is a step up from Oblivion, but there is still cringe-worthy, childish and sloppy writing all over the place. the Jarl of Markarth telling me everything in the city is made of stone, even the beds - while standing next to his wooden bed - for example. might seem like a minor thing, but there so many such apparent disconnects between the writing and what you actually experience in-game that it gets pretty annoying.

    and then there are the bugs... at first I wondered if I was lucky because I didn't really have any noteworthy bugs at all, but over the last couple of days I've witnessed plenty. only one quest-breaking bug so far, but even the small ones do get annoying after a while:

    - general UI buginess
    - 10 bottles of wine in my inventory that I can't get rid of because one or two of them are quest items and can't be dropped, sold, stashed or used.
    - Lydia getting stuck in the "almost dead/begging for her life" stance and crawls after me along the ground.
    - shopkeepers losing all their money when I quick-load.
    - getting stuck in the shopping menu after selling something.
    - telepathic guards that somehow know I'm a "sneaky thief" despite me never getting caught stealing. hell, they even sent some bruisers after me in Whiterun. three guys attacked me outside the city and one of the had a contract for me from the Whiterun Guard. I checked to see if I had a bounty, which I did not.
    - npc's movement getting hindered by the smallest of objects. especially annoying when it's a companion.
    - telling Lydia to "wait there" over in the distance, and exiting order-mode only to have her immediately turn around and walk back to me.
    - items going invisible. I suspect this has something to do with the physics. first time I saw it was on a table where I could pick up items that simply weren't there. when I picked up one of them, the rest sort of dropped down on the table and became visible. second time, it was the other way around - I picked up an item, only to have a few items nearby go invisible.
    - a couple of dragons refusing to acknowledge and attack me. they just soar through the skies above, even following me, but just won't come closer. I'm thinking this might be scripted though?

    there are more. many more.