Fallout: The Frontier - Released!

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Proletären, Jan 15, 2021.

  1. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    He wants to nuke the Long-15 regardless of who you side with. He plans to bleed out NCR by destroying their most vital trade route and cutting them off from the Mojave, which in turn also stops the Legion in its tracks and halts their momentum - bringing them to an early collapse (Because he believes that the Legion will collapse when it runs out of steam, i.e if they defeated NCR and reached the sea, the same would happen), and then letting the Mojave and the rest of "The West" stir and fly a new flag in the wake of both factions dying out.

    He doesn't blame the Courier for the Divide's destruction - he views the Courier as carrying an unintentional life lesson/message - that one individual can change the course of history, 'make or break a nation', as the Courier did at the Divide (By killing off what he thought was going to become a new nation). Then you get into the metaphor stuff which is a bit convoluted with his choice of the Long 15 being perfect because it's the way Couriers travel through NCR (as you did extensively) and it's "your home" for that reason, so there's a sense of cosmic/poetic justice in it.

    The only personal animosity he has toward the player is that he thinks you're careless, basically the archetype of the Fallout protagonist - wander into places, change the course of their history and then leave without any investment or reflection on it. Which is something you can prove him wrong on in your final confrontation via Faction Rep.
     
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  2. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    973
    Dec 6, 2016
    Perfect, this is it. I will favor your message and post the link whenever I have to explain to someone about how wrong they are with this dlc.
     
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  3. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Long-winded response here. It's also a layman's response, I'm by no means a proffesional, and if anyone is they can feel free to correct me on any details I might get wrong:

    It's kinda inherently anachronistic to try and call Classical Era states "Fascist" after 20th century ideologies which did not yet exist.

    Perhaps you could see parallels, but given that Rome existed from 753 BC to 476 AD and had a constantly changing political landscape for the period it was around, you could probably find evidence of Rome being whatever political ideology suited your personal interpretation of it, given the timescale and all the major political upheavals that happened within it.

    Mussolini tried to play up a lot of the Roman Heritage of Fascist Italy, especially through public artworks, but this was largely an aesthetic technique used to try and justify fascism by using past states.

    There's multiple arguements you could make against Rome being fascist:

    Firstly being that to talk about Rome having a singular political ideology at all is inherently misleading: Rome started off as a Kingdom, which was overthrown to make a Republic, which was overthrown in to a Dictatorship again, which then after a period of Civil War became a weird semi-democratic semi-dictatorial structure under Augustus, followed by centuries of Emperors, convrted to Christianity and then eventually deciding to partition in multiple different ways, eventually settling on the East/West divide. Some Emperors were also Philosophers, writing their own treatises on what government meant, most famously Marcus Aurelius who wrote extensively about Stoic philosophy. To make a case like "Rome was Fascist" or "Rome was Liberal" or whatever, you'd have to make the case that every single period of Roman History, or even the governing styles and philosophies of every single Roman Emperor conformed to that idelogy.

    Secondly, what we usually associate with Fascism is it being Xenophobic, Ultranationalist, Hyper-Authoritarian and Hyper-Traditionalist. Now, you could make the case for Authoritarianism, though I'd respond that making that case would be a flawed analysis given that Rome existed prior to modern conceptions of liberalism and human rights, so arguably all of Rome's neighbours would also fall under that definition, and given that since the Republic period Rome had Civil Law, Courts, the right to Trials, ect., it was arguably less authoritarian than many of it's contemporary states.
    As for the Traditionalism and Xenophobia, the Romans had much more of a "Whatever works" approach to traditions and other cultures, their attitude shifting based on what suited their needs. There are cases for instance, of them engaging in Genocide. Typically though, the Romans were much more likely to respond to conquered cultures by adopting their traditions and intergrating them in to the structure of the Roman State: because y'know, this is actually a very efficient way to govern a vast empire that incorporates multiple different cultures: typically cultural inclusion makes your imperial subjects less likely to revolt. If modern Fascists held the same beliefs they do today, and lived in the Roman Empire, they'd probably be disgusted by how regularly Rome changed it's traditions to incorporate conquered cultures.

    You could make the case that individual figures had ideologies which resembled a form of proto-Fascism. The figure I'd make the case for is Augustus: He never took on any official monarchial titles, rather insisting on being called "First Citizen" or "First among Equals", while at the same time using his sway in the Senate to be granted several lifetime positions as a Commander, Tribune and Censor, and regularly considered himself more as a speaker for the Roman people rather than a leader. This is kinda similar to the structure of Fascism: dictators placing themselves in power indefinitely, but the propaganda not treating them as such but rather as voices of the Nation(which is of course, inherently circular: you claim to speak for the nation, yet are yourself deciding what the nation constitutes and believes).
    There's also the fact that Literature during the Augustan period tended to have pseudo-fascistic qualities when discussing natures of the state: the Poet Virgil famously wrote philosophical treatises about human beings and natural subservience to authority using Bees as an allegory, which resembles Fascist political ideology quite strongly. He also wrote the Aeneid: an attempt to replicate Greek Epic Poetry, which situated Rome as being descended from the survivors of Ancient Troy, in an attempt to justify Rome as being a consistent state that followed from the traditions of Heroic Era Greece(Which was at the time was considered the height of civilisation). This is another trait of fascism: trying to tie yourself to some ancient great civilisation, and treat your rise to power as an attempt to recreate that civilisation.

    However even with all this in mind, it would still be something of a misnomer to call Augutus a fascist, given that the Augustan period had very different goals to modern Fascism. Modern Fascism tends to be reactionary and traditionalist, whereas the Augustan period was more about re-establishing what Roman Governance meant in the wake of the collapse of Republicanism, and decades of Civil War.

    Anyway, one thing that I think's an interesting take-away from this is that what makes Legion a good faction in New Vegas, IMO, is precisely their selective reading of Roman History. It kinda rings true to actual Fascism. Mussolini did the same thing, taking aesthetics he liked from Roman History and using them to imply a rebirth of ancient civilisation. That's kinda the whole point: Legion, like all fascists, kinda ignore the vast scope of the historical era they're dealing with, and instead summarise it as sort of "Whatever personally suits our claims to be the successor to this civilisation"


    Also: You're right in pointing out the irony of the modders not letting you play as the Enclave because they're fascist, but also not considering the Legion as such: given that JESawyer has actively stated that he wrote Legion around Umberto Eco's essay "Ur-Fascism", an essay about the inherent contradictions in fascism.

    Like, when literally the designers of the game said they wrote Legion around being showcases of the contradictory nature of fascism, it's hilarious that the Frontier modders are acting as though that's not the case.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  4. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    It's also worth noting that Ulysses is also written as being deliberately hypocrtical in his carelessness criticism because he is guilty of the exact same thing in his portrayal as being another player character type. All of the DLCs are you cleaning up the mess that he leaves through his wandering 'adventures'. He directed Elijah to the Sierra Madre, he mentored the White Legs and led them in genociding the New Canaanites, he was the one who woke up the Think Tank from their 'loop' they were trapped in and made them aware of the outside world.
     
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  5. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    My Ulsyess hot take:
    Ulsyess.png

    Like honestly, I respect people who argue back and forth about Ulsyess's motivations: "He was motivated by vengeance", "Actually he specifically doesn't blame you", "He's deliberately written to be a hypocrite". I do not have the patience to properly become an Ulsyess lore expert.

    If the writers wanted us to take this character seriously, IMO, they shouldn't have made him have the most annoying speaking style of any character in any Fallout game "A Metaphor...Message is conveyed...Talks in clipped sentences"

    Which would be bearable if it was actually conveyed in some way other than walking through a road shooting deathclaws, and occasionally being stopped for a half hour to listen to a man rant at you. That is a very bad way to commuicate a character's underlying motivations and philosophy, and tbh, the game didn't do a good enough job convincing me that it's worth understanding him as a character.
     
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  6. Iprovidelittlepianos

    Iprovidelittlepianos Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    388
    May 12, 2020
    The first time I played Lonesome Road I thought Ulysses was really cool. The second time I played it was a few years later, and by then I realized how pretentious his manner of speaking is, like he’s trying really hard to sound cool. I like his backstory and all but yeah, he isn’t very well-portrayed ingame.
     
  7. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    I like Ulysses a lot but I have no illusions that his good writing is conveyed very poorly. The sheer fact that ten years later 90% of players actually don't understand what is going on and just think he's mad at the mailman is testament to that.

    I like his way of speaking as an idea because it's very tribal and builds into the mystification of post-nuclear america, however it really needed to be cut down and not be his usual intonation. Because yeah, it comes off as too much otherwise.
     
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  8. megamike15

    megamike15 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    123
    Mar 30, 2016
    i think alot of the issue is people just see him at face value. so to alot of people he is just some mad man hyped up for 4 dlcs that blames you for something you never did.
     
  9. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I like him vicariously through posts other people have made about him:

    When I hear it explained through other posts about his hypocrisy, his internal struggles with what he's doing, his ideology about the desire for a new civilisation and his anger at the destruction of Hopeville, ect., I think he actually makes a compelling character.

    Problem is it takes a lot of digging through layers of metaphor and hours of dialogue to find this. Like usually I'm a massive Fallout Nerd who spends ages trying to dig through the lore to make up my own interpretations, but with Ulsyess I often feel that this effort is not worth it for a single character.

    Ulsyess is one of those characters I'm more than happy to appreciate through other people's interpretations.
    Apparently the original goal behind Ulysses was that he was meant to be a companion in the base-game who was sympathetic to Legion, but could through the Courier's actions be convinced that the Courier could act as a unifying symbolic figurehead for a future civilisation in the Mojave, and rally behind other endings instead.

    I feel like this actually makes a lot more sense for his ideology and the way he's written. By listening to Ulsyess the player would get an interesting nuance about the future of the Mojave beyond short-term material gains.

    I think putting him front and center of a DLC and the overarching antagonist of all three games kinda weakens him because they need to put a lot more mandatory BS in to justify his existence as a major antagnoist.

    Source: https://web.archive.org/web/2020052..._writer_and_former_unlucky_schlep__Part_3.php
     
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  10. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    I still think he was good as an antagonist, Lonesome Road itself just needed a thorough edit. However, I also think that the game also needed a pro-Legion companion that wasn't a meathead.
     
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  11. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015

    Even butthurted, he's still lying. Pathological liar, pants on fire. His nose is longer than telephone wire. Some nexus community modder died after suffering a heart attack with no 4chan Sneedclave squad involvement. But Xilandro has different intel again.


    RENT! FREE!!!
     
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  12. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 7, 2015
    Yeah, good a writer though he is Avellone has a big problem with self indulgence. Lonesome Road is one of the few times when the common Bethesda apologist refrain of "Show, not tell" is a valid criticism of NV - but then, if you take out half of Ulysses's dialogue, that might reduce the length of the DLC by half.
     
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  13. JunjiItosGio

    JunjiItosGio It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 29, 2020
    Someone needs to grab that overworld map of Portland and do something better with it because in all honesty The Frontier's city map seems like it has a lot of potential. Even if released as a modder's resource like someone did with their recreation of San Fran.
     
  14. Dayglow Drifter

    Dayglow Drifter Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    492
    Sep 25, 2018
    Not a fan of this idea a lot of people have about Fallout where nuclear apocalypse happened but most of the cities in the United States all have to somehow be largely intact, honestly. They obviously had to do it in New Vegas but there's at least a pretty satisfying explanation for why it is that way.

    A more recent example of this would be the two companions he wrote in Pillars of Eternity

    Not at all. Fascism is a pretty specific ideology contrary to what people (both on the left and right) tend to think and it was pretty much a very obvious response to some of the stuff that started happening as Europe really started to emerge into what we define as modernity. It isn't really something that would be compatible with any of the political thought you were dealing with as far back as Ancient Rome.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  15. JunjiItosGio

    JunjiItosGio It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 29, 2020
    I feel it works for 76 too a bit. No one really cares about the West Virginia countryside. I think they say everything in that game is just backblast and radiation from the areas that actually got hit. Probably referring to DC and Virginia. And yeah I know DC isn’t all crater and rubble, but whatever. Still a good looking world map. For 76 though it works imo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  16. Iprovidelittlepianos

    Iprovidelittlepianos Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    388
    May 12, 2020
    It’s been said before but, compare that to Randall Clark’s experiences in the Zion Canyon immediately post war. Same basic idea, an area that didn’t get hit by nukes but is absolutely devastated by the environmental consequences of full scale nuclear war. I think that’s a much better way of portraying a place like West Virginia.

    Also, if West Virginia has all these missile silos then why wasn’t it hit by Chinese nukes?

    Yeah I heard about that and his character would’ve fit much better into the game as a companion rather than antagonist, but I’m glad he still made it into the game eventually.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  17. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    973
    Dec 6, 2016
    Oh no, terrible TERRIBLE news :sad:

    Wolf7000 was a dear colleague, he was super enthusiastic about my Arizona Slave Army and Knightmare Fiends mods and took lots of good pictures to post on my mods' pages. I loved it when he did that.

    https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/130/images/66081/66081-1589126354-1118198735.jpeg
    https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/130/images/69569/69569-1596795100-363893575.jpeg

    We even chatted a bit via Steam chat and Nexus private messages. The guy was a real New Vegas lover.

    Rest in peace buddy.
     
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  18. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Archives Overseer

    Mar 16, 2013
    Yupppppp. Most major US cities (In particular state capitals) should be like Randall Clark describing Salt Lake City - just concrete and twisted girders. Nothing left but foundations, rubble and blast craters. The Boneyard is called that for a reason. I never pictured towering skyscrapers there, I pictured a concrete and asphalt cemetary. You could maybe excuse some places that got air-blasted.

    Besides, even if they remained intact the majority are going to hold zero strategic value outside of salvaging - there's no reason anybody would form community or give a shit about Portland after the Great War unless it had specific technology. Again to call on the Boneyard example, the Boneyard in the grand scheme of NCR is actually pretty unimportant.
     
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  19. JunjiItosGio

    JunjiItosGio It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 29, 2020
    Some of my favorite parts of the Fallout 3 map is when you exit a metro and emerge to nothing but rubble and building frames that you can see all the way into the distance.
     
  20. Iprovidelittlepianos

    Iprovidelittlepianos Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    388
    May 12, 2020
    I seem to remember the Boneyard being described as having skeletal skyscrapers towering all around, but perhaps I’m mistaken.

    Edit: Never mind, I believe I was misremembering this part of the Vault Dwellers Memoirs: “The LA Boneyard stretched forever, the skeletons of buildings lying under the hot sun.” I guess he specifically describes the skeletons of buildings “lying”, rather than standing upright.