Hugo Chavez

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by donperkan, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
  2. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    Sorry, but this is BS. I'm not anti-Chavez by any means, he did a lot of good to Venezuela, but there's no denying his track record regarding press freedom is nothing to be proud of. When Human Rights Watch, Reporter sans Frontières, and Freedom House (among others) heavily criticize your policies, something's wrong. Like it or not, the press was gagged, and it's not excuses such as ''oh, but they spied on us!!'' that will convince me otherwise.
     
  3. G-Man

    G-Man First time out of the vault

    7
    Mar 11, 2013
    Sorry, I correct myself, there are 111 channels in total, of which 61 are private and 13 are state-owned.
    It's funny because the private channels are the whole day criticizing the Chavez regime and saying that there is no freedom of expression, but the mere fact that they can say that, is proof that they can say whatever they want.

    Regarding the organizations that you name, the majority of them are directly or indirectly funded by the U.S. State Department, clearly defending the interests of that country and its corporations, I would take that information very carefully if I were you.

    Oh, if illegal acts were committed in Venezuela, against journalists or anyone else, just because of thinking differently, I think that is very wrong.

    In my opinion, Chavez was not a saint, far from it, but neither was the bloodthirsty and intolerant dictator that everyone seems to describe.
     
  4. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    Human Rights Watch and Reporter Sans Frontières and funded by the US Department of State? I want your source on that info. You can't just dismiss all criticism by saying Uncle Sam is behind it.

    Chavez was not the devil, but he had an authoritarian streak, I don't see how anyone could deny that. I'd rather we ask ourselves if that authoritarism was necessary to secure the reforms he wanted to make; the rules are just different in latin america than in the West.
     
  5. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Seguiremos adelante, como junto a tí seguimos,
    y con Fidel te decimos: ¡Hasta siempre, Comandante!

    He is a monster because consensus says he is a monster, and if you disagree with consensus you are everything you don't want to be. It's like a magic trick.
    Which is why I can't stand discussing politics with anybody except those who already agree with me...
     
  6. Ratty Sr.

    Ratty Sr. Formerly known as Ratty Moderator Orderite

    Apr 23, 2003
    Actually, he only won four. Pffft. Stroessner and Trujillo won like ten each. Paragons of democracy, both of them.
     
  7. Jebus

    Jebus Background Radiant
    Orderite

    Jan 29, 2004
    People here are hilariously uninformed.

    Venezuela is ranked #165 (of 174) of the most corrupt countries in the world by Transparency International. It's flanked by countries like Haiti and Equatorial Guinea. Even Zimbabwe and Congo are less corrupt. Imagine that, being more corrupt than those two.

    Venezuele is one of the largest oil producers in the world. The price of oil is sky high. Yet average income is lower than surrounding countries. Inflation is 20% or higher. Over 30% of the population is below the poverty line. And despite claims that, for instance, Venzuelan health care is top notch thanks to government spending, infant mortality rate and life expectancy are at best on par and often worse than its neighbours.

    Oh, but I'm sure it's all American lies and conspiracies, right?
     
  8. Evil Neville

    Evil Neville First time out of the vault

    27
    Oct 2, 2012
    I'll remember him as someone who halved poverty in his country, dragged the Venezuelan health-care system out of the muck, educated the underprivileged and reminded the US that it's no longer 1975 in South America. He may have not been the best president ever or the most understated one but he was a far cry from a 'crazed dictator' or whatever bullshit Fox news is spilling right now. The fact remains the he really set the stage for the breaking away from the US that many Latin American countries are doing now. He was one of the first to really stand up for Latin America against the US, which has basically spent the better part of a century making the Latin American nations modern day colonies.

    Was he the next Willy Brandt? No. But by the press he gets you'd think he started 2 wars in as many years, or removed due process and privacy from the list of things people are entitled to or used his presidential villa to stage orgies and make deals with the mafia or committed so much fraud that his country's economy was ruined for the next 20 years- or you know, whatever else respectable world leaders are up to these days.

    But carry on, my friend, for GAWD AND MERUKAH.
     
  9. Jebus

    Jebus Background Radiant
    Orderite

    Jan 29, 2004
    Still Venezuela is at least or more corrupt now than it was even before Chavez. You can't explain that.

    He was a brilliant orator in his own way, I'll give you that. Still, the figures and statistics seems to contradict all his statements and promises. Venezuela did no better and often worse than its neighbours, and that despite all that oil money. Even I couldn't have fucked up so badly, and I don't even speak Spanish.
     
  10. Evil Neville

    Evil Neville First time out of the vault

    27
    Oct 2, 2012
    You're just throwing out random vague blanket statements that don't mean anything.
     
  11. Jebus

    Jebus Background Radiant
    Orderite

    Jan 29, 2004
    HAH! Everything I say is based on figures from Transparency International, the IMF, the World Bank, the UN, etc. etc. If you think that hard data that proves that everything Chavez' propaganda claimed is a bold-face lie are "random vague blanket statements" then your head is obviously so far up Chavez' corpse's arse that you are physically unable to seperate fact from the sweet nectar of bullshit that Chavez fed you.
     
  12. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Carbon Dated and Proud

    Feb 23, 2006
    Obviously you don't understand that he accumulated 4 billion dollars of personal wealth for the benefit of his people.
     
  13. Jebus

    Jebus Background Radiant
    Orderite

    Jan 29, 2004
    The highest figure I found is $2 billion, and I didn't find independent sources to back that so I didn't include this claim. Yet, Transparency International is about as independent as they get, and if they rank Venezuela to be one of the most corrupt societies in the world that's more than enough to prove the point of corruption.
     
  14. Evil Neville

    Evil Neville First time out of the vault

    27
    Oct 2, 2012
    Nobody ever said the man was a saint. He obviously had many downsides. What matters is that, when it's all summed up, his accomplishments and all the good things he did for his country stand high above his failures, and to question that is pretty much laughable if you know what Venezuela looked like before he came to power. Also, IMF? World Bank? UN? Really? :lol:
     
  15. Eternauta

    Eternauta It Wandered In From the Wastes

    134
    Dec 8, 2010
    These guys speak from a totally neutral and objective point of view. Right?
     
  16. Jebus

    Jebus Background Radiant
    Orderite

    Jan 29, 2004
    Oh great, here comes the "every NGO in the world and all transnational organisations are in a massive conspiracy against Chavez/Assad/North Korea/...". I haven't heard that one before.

    If you know better than all of them, then please show me some proof. Any objectively verifiable proof that Venezuela is a better country to live in than its neighbours, or that the massive oil revenue is spent well. Really, I'll even be lenient.

    *EDIT* Also, if you want to question the independence of Transparency International (without any proof whatsoever), then take a look at their audited financial report, publicly available. The list of donors starts at page 29. Then explain to me why all these diverse donors would back an organisation like Transparency International only to conspire and lie about Venezuela.

    I'm not even going to bother adressing your bullshit swipe at organisations like the IMF, UN and World Bank - if you think they've all got some sort of anti-Chavez agenda, you're too stupid for words.
     
  17. 34thcell

    34thcell Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    333
    Sep 22, 2008
    I don't think it's too hard to criticise IMF or World Bank on neutrality and objectivity.
     
  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    doing it with chavez and Venezuela isnt that hard either. Mind you we are not calling him the next Hitler or Stalin here. But corruption in South America is an growing issue. And it is rather easy to glorify someone.
     
  19. 34thcell

    34thcell Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    333
    Sep 22, 2008
    No, you can't criticise a government for lack of neutrality. That doesn't make sense.

    On corruption: cronyism isn't always so bad. You have to look at specific examples to judge the damage.
     
  20. Jebus

    Jebus Background Radiant
    Orderite

    Jan 29, 2004
    :roll: