Legion/BoS war (Expect spoilers)

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by Faceless Stranger, Nov 16, 2010.

  1. Faceless Stranger

    Faceless Stranger Board Drifter

    Aug 19, 2010
    The Afgans were being slaughtered by the Soviets before the Americans supplied them with weapons. Also, T-51b isn't vulnerable to mines, why would an IED be any different? Again, during the Sino-American war, the few mechanized cavalary squads of T-51b troops were able to clear the advanced CHINESE forces and were entering Beijing when the bombs dropped.
  2. Threepwood

    Threepwood Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2010
    @Tagaziel could you also be the responding cat?
  3. Bad_Karma

    Bad_Karma Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jun 17, 2007
    The Legion also doesn't have a location in region supporting their army - Vegas seems to be only able to support itself, all other resources need to be importet - and the supplying an army as big as the legion is even worse than supplying a little army.
    So the BoS is more likely to being able to life from the country near Vegas, than the Legion.

    About the dam, just thinking about it - you might be right. While i read at the Vault that they were there (coming from the NV offical game guide) i think Veronica said they didn't even get there. But i'm not anymore sure about that.

    Veronicas quest seems to me to be besides the point because the quest shows that they aren't quite yet ready to change their whole ideology, so that's another thing than strategy and tactics - but that's only the impression i got from her quest.

    By the way even her existance might be a hint that they are slowly changing their minds. And she doesn't seem to be the only one who think that something has to change, to strengthen the BoS.

    Well the quests "Still in the dark" and "Eyesight to the blind" show that they are interested in exploring further whats going on outside. And especially in one of the eraly quests you see that they are monitoring the eara all around black mountain.
    Sure, their tries don't succeed every time - but alone that they don't try to kill you when you stumble upon them but want you to scout for them is a sign for me that they are not completly ignorant.

    So as said i would agree that the BoS might loose real quick if they would try to stay in one single location or let themselves be tricked into stomping toward some trap. But i'm not convinced that they might do so.
  4. Mr Damsky

    Mr Damsky First time out of the vault

    Nov 6, 2010
    Mujahadeen had Stinger Missiles.
  5. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    It is a valid example, as it disproves your argument of "technology = victory".

    Uh, no. We are basing on a theoretical war of the Brotherhood with the Legion, which can only take place if the Legion defeats the NCR and occupies the Mojave. Thus, the Legion is in CONTROL of the entire area and the Brotherhood would be outnumbered and surrounded.

    All of which are meaningless, as you need to have line of sight to actually use the scope. Night vision devices are not magical see-all devices, while the paladins are not omniscient. A skilled elite force would be able to inflitrate the facility. History knows of far tougher nuts that have been cracked than any makeshift fortress the Brotherhood can erect.

    Also, pray tell, if the BoS is so powerful, then how did it lose the war with the NCR, hm?

    Uh, what? The Brotherhood relies on a very limited amount of pre-War suits of armour, if you failed to notice, in Fallout 1 only Paladins had powered armour, while the rest of the Brotherhood (more numerous too) only wore robes or combat armour. Same goes for the Hidden Valley bunker - while the chapter has a larger number of paladins than other ones, they still don't have nearly enough armour to equip every member nor weapons and ammunition to go around.

    I don't think you comprehend (or try to, for that matter) the scale of the conflict we're talking about here. It isn't a shooting range or patrol. It's a full out war against the best the Legion has to offer, a war where the Brotherhood is vastly outnumbered. Such a war needs a lot of supplies and a stable stream of reinforcements and food. As it stands, the Brotherhood has neither of those. Operatives are not a viable source of supply for a war effort.

    No, they lost because they were outnumbered, outgunned AND the Mojave chapter was nearly wiped out at Helios One. The Brotherhood did not kick ass - they were forced to run with their tails tucked between their legs, lest the NCR destroy what little remained of Elijah's fighting force.

    Furthermore, the Legion is not "looneys with machetes". They are a well organized, disciplined and fanatical fighting force. Yes, raw recruits are typically thrown into combat with melee weapons, but they are just a distraction. The main fighters use firearms quite liberally, not to mention explosives and heavier melee weapons.

    That's ignoring the amount of weapons they'd loot after taking the Mojave.

    Err, no, it's very valid, even more so when you remember that powered armour is quite a bit slower than a Humvee and thus easier to ambush.

    ...what? Is that even a question? The Brotherhood has one (1) small bunker in the Mojave. Caesar has a massive army rallied in a large camp outside Fortification Hill formed from the 86 tribes he conquered. They *are* vastly outnumbered, even more so considering that most of the Mojave chapter was killed at Helios One.

    No. The Brotherhood in the West is still at war with the NCR. Otherwise, they'd have reinforced McNamara already.

    As stated above, the only instance in which the War can take place is if the Courier aids the Legion in taking Mojave. As such, the Courier would have no intention to help the Brotherhood, to the contrary.

    Which also means the Legion would be controlling the Boomers, or at least their artillery, which is something the Brotherhood cannot counter.

    You honestly have no idea about artillery, do you? Missile launchers shoot straight, they don't arc, which means they won't reach the Fort's interior. Anything the Brotherhood can muster, short of mortars, is simply not going to work against an entrenched and well prepared enemy.

    No. Simply, no. As elaborated above and in other posts, the Brotherhood simply cannot win such a war because the dominos are not going to fall into place. Why can't you accept that?

    You mean in the same way a tank is invulnerable to anti-tank mines?

    The lands east of the Colorado are their supply and with the Legion's taking of Mojave wasteland (which is the prerequisite of a hypothetical Legion/Brotherhood war) they have all of its resources to support itself, which is far more than the Brotherhood would have.

    Veronica's quest exposes all of their weaknesses, most importantly dogmatism. Pray tell, why would such a dogmatic organisation change all of their strategy and tactics basing on one defeat? Hell, such a drastic failure at Helios One did nothing to change Hardin's or McNamara's attitudes. They're completely oblivious to the fact that the Brotherhood is dying a slow death.

    She clearly states that she is an outsider used as a field operative because they don't want her in the bunker spreading her beliefs. Hell, the paladins that chastise you and eventually attack during her quest are proof enough that the Brotherhood is still stuck in its 2161 mentality, if not worse.

    They are only interested in intel on the surrounding areas, not current events (well, except for those directly related to them, such as Rangers searching for them in the area).

    The explosive collar they slip on your neck just in case is a great sign of willingness to change.

    Why wouldn't they? It worked for them in the past, why wouldn't they consider doing this again?

    The Legion would have missile launchers, howitzers and explosives too. They adapt.
  6. Threepwood

    Threepwood Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Nov 4, 2010
    I'll edit this space for a reply tommorow, but for now.

    1. I was suggesting there was missile launchers, and therefor missiles, which could be used by other devices.

    2. When did we assume the courier helped the Legion? This changes the entire debate
  7. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    The only instance in which the Brotherhood would be facing off against the Legion is if the Legion takes the Mojave. The prerequisite for the latter is the Courier helping the Legion.

    Which, amusingly, means that there'd be no Brotherhood with which to fight, as their destruction is necessary for Caesar's plans.
  8. Ausir

    Ausir Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Apr 20, 2003
    The Mojave chapter is not the only part of the Brotherhood left.
  9. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    The only real way to find out how such a war would turn out is to set up a pen and paper campaign and test it. :p
  10. Nalano

    Nalano Still Mildly Glowing

    Jan 20, 2009
    The Afghans, fighting with second-hand weapons provided by the PRC with American money against the USSR - a world superpower - prevailed.

    The Vietnamese, fighting with second-hand weapons provided by the PRC against the US of A - a world superpower - prevailed.


    Because conducting a war is expensive, and the victor in modern conflict is the one who can keep at it the longest. The BoS have no reserves: End of story.
  11. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    But it's the only one available for war.
  12. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Not to mention that the soft squishy human being wearing the PA would suffer at least a bit the repercussions of mine going off between his legs.

    It's also worth noting that in the "Still in the dark" quest we find a BoS Paladin dead in a crater (in an area populated only by centaurs) and two dead Paladins in the Repconn headquarters (where the only enemies are Sentry Bots and Mr. Handy). Weren't T-51b impervious to lasers, bullets and missiles...?
  13. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    They're not. They're extremely durable, but can be destroyed. Hell, in the Glow, most of the paladins were cut down by robots and facility traps, showing that with all its strength it's not invulnerable and should not be confused with a tank in its purpose.
  14. Bad_Karma

    Bad_Karma Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jun 17, 2007
    Which means the Legion has to station a lot of troops to save the very limited supply of the NV region and even more to defend their supply lines from the east side of the Colorado, which actively limits the soldiers they can field in the Region.
    The BoS simply can raid Legion outposts for their supplies, which the Legion would only be able to stop when they're able to pin the BoS down or by stationing tons of Legionnaires on such Outposts, which really weakens them.

    Well than the question would be, why does the BoS agree on helping the NCR, if nothing changed? - something changed definitely in their outlook on their situation and what might be a good idea to do.
    Also the BoS didn't only loose at Helion One - but were seem to have been beaten also before. So if they're chaning their strategy, and i'm still incliend to believe so, it's not based on a single battle but on losing a war.

    Which is still besides the point when talking about tactics and strategies.

    One of the scouts even reports that the NCR got problems with the Legion - so again i don't see why you say they're not interested in other events.
    Sure their focus lies on the ones hunting for them, but that doesn't mean they ignore the rest of the informations.

    So you said they were ignorant of the outside of hidden valley and that's simply not true.
    Let me repeat what i said, the Legion would have to surprise the BoS in the Valley to be able to destroy the entrance - which might not be as simple as you say it would be, because seems to be better hidden than a lot of other people, and also watch out for enemies, even single person who are a lot harder to spot than a troop of Legionairies.

    Which they take off as soon as you proved you're not going to blow their cover the first time you're able to.
    Also that's beside the point of the BoS wanting to know more of the outside and therfore hiring you to scout the area and get reports from lost Brothers.

    Because they seemingly were loosing a war against the NCR following such tactics and seem to adapt slowly to the new circumstances.

    So i'm not saying the BoS will definitively win or even adapt, but there's a chance for that.
    I mean it's a speculative scenario in which the BoS might have quite some time to adapt more to the Legion.
    If the Legion would push through the NCR and be the next day at hidden valley, knowing the BoS was in there, they would most probably win - but for me such a scenario is a bit unlikely.
  15. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    The Legion has more than enough troops and ordnance to do that.

    It doesn't weaken them because they've got men to spare.

    They only agree to help them if the NCR returns all salvaged T-45d armour. They haven't changed one bit, it's still a move that's meant to take technology from lesser people, except this time, they give something in return.

    Where is their changing strategy? McNamara still has their technology hunt interest determining their strategic choices, as I've explained above. Hardin is even worse, as alliance with the NCR is an abomination for him.

    It has everything to do with tactics and strategies - a change in mentality brings upon a change in tactics.

    I've never said they weren't interested in the events around them, I said that they have a very narrow definition of "relevant" and are largely ignorant of what happens outside. Hell, I'm replaying Fallout: New Vegas right now and the question most often asked in the bunker is "Is the NCR still hunting us?". If they were really interested in the news, they'd acquire and disseminate intel that the NCR is at war with the Legion and has more pressing matters than a bunch of defeated guys stuck in a bunker underground.

    Why would they send in an entire unit? A single saboteur with a backpack of explosives would suffice. As would eg. a disguised frumentarii who would shadow troops back to Hidden Valley and figure out which bunker they are in.

    That's ignoring the fact that hulking steel figures in that area are a well known myth among the Mojave wastelanders. It's not hard to put two and two together.

    In fact, here's a quote from Caesar when he orders you to destroy the Brotherhood:

    Still think the Valley is secure?

    They only do that because you're an useful tool. As they themselves say, otherwise, you'd be executed on the spot. They even threaten you with execution to keep you loyal in the future.

    Didn't seem to change even after Helios. Sending peace envoys to the NCR would be change. Hiding underground waiting for them to die is not.

    Why? They pretty much know where the BoS is and Caesar is well aware of the threat they pose.
  16. Bad_Karma

    Bad_Karma Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jun 17, 2007
    I think you won me somewhat over.
  17. Faceless Stranger

    Faceless Stranger Board Drifter

    Aug 19, 2010
    The NCR also defeated the Legion and are more advanced tech-wise. They don't share the "Oooh, technology, me smash!" mentality that the Legion seems to have. Where elite NCR troops are sporting Salvaged Power Armor, Combat Armor, Anti-mat. Rifles and LMGs, the veteren Legionaries are equipped with football gear, SMGs and chainsaws. They don't use modern medecine and were it not for the fact that the NCR was too incompetant a beurocracy to efficiantly manage itself, would have been wiped out long ago.
  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    well they won a battle. But they didnt won the war against the legion. It just ended in a stalemate, which is the point where the courier comes in to play. And thats somewhat the point I think. Even with such huge looses the Legion is still capable of keeping the NCR on its toes, now if that is more the success of the legion or to blame on the NCR for beeing incompetent to capitalize on their victories is different story.
  19. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    The only reason they won was because the NCR had Chief Hanlon and Joshua Graham wasn't a brilliant strategist.
  20. vanzizzle

    vanzizzle It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Feb 15, 2010
    I just came because of you Tagaziel.. The Legion will win undoubtedly. More numbers, means more Legionnaires will reach lines of defense and let us not forget about the ballistic fists.. how do the people inside PA not get any trauma whatsoever from an explosion?

    And what's to say that Caesar mightn't change his mind on using technology to defeat the BoS?