Mexican Border Wars and US Guns

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by welsh, May 9, 2008.

  1. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    Theres no deterrent for them crossing over and theres literally no consequence even if they are caught.

    Just 'looking to live a better life' isn't an excuse to break the law. Bank robbers are just looking for a better life too.
     
  2. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    I think shooting is a good idea but who we are targetting is wrong.

    We should shoot to kill the "coyotes" who assist the illegals into this country. Make it so damn expensive to get here that most won't be able to cross illegally.

    Every time the border patrol stops a crossing, find out the coyote and kill him, just deport the others.

    I for one am tired of the handouts. Every other minority has to wait their god damn turn. Mexico should be no different just because they are right next door.
     
  3. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    I think there is a big difference between someone robbing a bank and someone crossing over a artificial border to find a better life, especially considering that most of these folks just want to work and get paid a decent salary.

    You want to execute bankrobbers, ok. But shooting what are essentially refugees? Seems a bit extreme.

    Of course, if we didn't make the costs of immigration so damn expensive, than maybe a lot of these people would come over legally. I mean, it only takes about $10k and about 10 years to come over legally.

    WHen my folks came over back in the 1950s, it wasn't that difficult. A little fairness might go a long way.
     
  4. Ah-Teen

    Ah-Teen Vault Senior Citizen
    Orderite

    Jun 21, 2007
    Not all of them are looking to live a better life. The gangs from south of the boarder are making their way up here. Drugs are guns are making their way here.

    Thats why some people believe in shooting first.

    That said I don't believe in shooting first. That would just be a bloody mess.

    However they are coming here illegally. Our immigration system needs fixing, but I do not believe that is an excuse to break the law. Most of them are not in danger of death from their country. I don't want to see them live in sewers but if they want a better life, they have to work for it.

    I want a better, more secure life of carrying a gun. I can't until I'm 21. Like I said before, I was tempted to do it illegally, and, unlike many illegals, I have had my life threatened because I'm gay.

    No thats not what he's saying. Nor are US gun dealers willingly selling guns across boarders. Hell, most of these gun dealers are the "GTFO of my country" type.

    You seem have this crazy notion that gun companies are huge cooperate organizations who don't value human life and will go to any lengths to get money. They don't get money by the selling of guns on the black market. They get money by selling guns to police and military. They gain marginal profits from civilian sales.

    This thought is common among gun companies. They don't want to see people use their weapon to kill. They built their weapon to defend police officers. To serve soldiers in combat. To protect the life of an individual who carries a gun for self defense.

    I'm taking drafting and mechanical engineering classes because I have a dream to design a weapon that will be used by my country. Not because I want money. But because I want fame. I want soldiers and police to have a gun that they admire. I want it to only shoot "The bad guys" but I know that wont happen, even if it's in the hands of the police.

    My brother in law came here from Brazil. It took him about two years and I don't have any idea how much it cost him.

    He wasn't rolling in money down there in any sense of the word and he works hard to pay off his debts and provide for his family, and go to school.

    He came here legally.
     
  5. Mord_Sith

    Mord_Sith Mildly Dipped

    588
    Sep 21, 2007
    So you know what you do?

    Build a wall, and a river, and another wall, then put crocodiles in the river, and spikes on the walls, make bridges that go over the wall at certain sections so that traffic is unhampered by the wall...

    You can call it the wall of freedom like most USA residents seem to like calling things, then you can expand the freedom wall around the coasts and across the Canadian/American border, because you know those goddamn Canadians let everyone in unless they don't have a criminal record.

    Then plan expansions of the wall of freedom so that it goes higher, and increase the toll on the bridges to pay for maintenance and expansion that will never happen.

    Then start grounding all but internal flights to protect the US citizens from the dangerous outside world.

    I'm sorry but shooting immigrants is bloody stupid and narrow minded, plain and simple, if you can't find a job, GET TRAINING FOR A BETTER ONE.

    You have the resources to do so, they don't they're stuck being wage slaves in terrible work conditions that barely meet labor standards if at all, they still get paid better, that much is true, but they have to spend more on foods they can get cheaper where they lived.

    It will take them two or three generations before they're stabilized middle class, until then they get the worst jobs around due to language and educational barriers from their upbringing.

    Don't blame immigrants because you're comfy little niche is getting upset, adapt and grow with the changes because you're just fooling yourself if you think shooting them is going to stop it, all it's going to do is turn the states into a xenophobic pile of ammunition.

    Wait that's what it is already...
     
  6. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    For the last time - I'm not condoning blowing these guys away. My friend was basically asking the question "Can this massive amount of people entering our country illegal be classified as an 'invasion'?"

    Now - really, I don't see that much of a difference between a bankrobber or a illigal immigrant. They are both bypassing the rules and looking for an easy fix. The biggest difference is that the risk-reward stakes are a lot higher for the bankrobber.

    You always hear about Mexicans coming over to provide for their families. Guess what? That country needs some population control. They have way too many kids that they can't even provide for. This whole controversy is bread out of their own ignorance. I realize that religion is a factor when it comes to birth control - but the biggest factor should be personal responsibility. Why are their uncared for children a burden on American taxpayers wallets?
     
  7. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    A couple of quick response-

    @ Ah-Teen- I think this mistaken. The gun industry is like any industry and driven for one goal- to make a profit. And it makes a profit by selling as many products it can to the consumers.

    As an old bastard I remember that, back in the late 1970s, most of the major gun magazines (which are like gaming mags in their connection to the industry) were against using military type guns for hunting since generally speaking, most military guns are mass produced weapons of plastic and steal created to maim people. They preferred highly crafted, highly accurate, rifles.

    Then in the 1980s, the gun industry realized that there was an untapped market for military type guns and the magazines changed their tune. The first bans on assault styled weapons were aimed at foreign imports (especially Chinese made AK-47s which frequently showed up as automatic weapons). This was driven by demand.

    A second example- the gun ban in Brazil. Brazil suffers some of the highest levels of gun violence in Latin America largely because of income inequalities and the fact that large sections of urban areas are basically free fire zones controlled by gangs. The bill almost pasted. That was until the US gun industry decided to lobby against the bill and donated millions of dollar's in a campaign- successfully reversing the bill.

    Now the thing is, there were a lot of guns in Brazil already. This wasn't about selling guns to the military or the police- that kind of business goes through a different set of rules. Rather this about selling guns to the consumer market.

    It's money that matters. And while we can honestly say that there are some gun manufactuers that want to make weapons of craft that can serve the public interest- we also have guns like the Tec-9 that are inaccurate as hell but are advertised to be "fingerprint proof." Jeez, I wonder who they are trying to sell too.

    Ok, now we always hear that most of the guns that get used in crimes were stolen. If that were true, than we have an epidemic of gun theft in the US. The truth, according to the ATF- is that a lot of the guns that get moved are sold in largely unregulated gun shows or are sold through straw purchasers.

    @Prez- the difference between a bank robber and a illegal immigrant is that a bank robber is a predator who has given up their opportunity to make money legally but uses coercive violence or the threat of coercive violence to take money. An illegal immigrant normally is interested in finding a better job and earning more money, and most of them want to become productive members of society.

    And given our social security problems, we either allow in immigrants or you can kiss all that social security money you've been paying goodbye.

    The other problem with civilians shooting illegals is that its frequently difficult to tell who is illegal and who is legal. My wife, from Brazil, could be an illegal to a trigger happy vigilante. And if he killed her- that's murder. Not surprising- the whole "invasion of illegals" has also led to greater discrimination against Hispanics- but that's another issue.

    @ Mordsith-
    If you want to get imaginative with border security- I suggest trained sharks with laser guided weapons, mine fields, punji stakes covered with manure, flamethrower traps, etc.
     
  8. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    They both abandon the law and well being of others in order to make their own lives better.

    Illegal immigrants don't pay social security. They don't pay income taxes. Yet they reap the benefits. Their children get free education.

    Besides all that, I haven't been holding out too much hope to one day collect social security.

    Yeah, but could you classify what has been happening an 'invaision'?

    We all agree that it sucks what happens to a certain demographic when a group of people from within that demographic break the law - but thats life in America. Whats really surprising is that LEGAL immigrants actually support these illegals for breaking the law.
     
  9. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    @prez

    I think welsh means the tax the illegals have to pay every time they buy goods in america. However, what welsh doesn't mention is that a majority of illegals earn their money here but spend it in mexico.

    The problem is it is ILLEGAL. For some odd reason a lot of democrats like to conveniently ignore that fact. I love immigration if it is legal. However, to say they should be given handouts because it was cheaper to come over in the past is bullshit.

    Using that argument, their relatives should have immigrated here in the past as well.

    The whole point is that everyone had to wait their goddamn turn and in the case of mexicans it should be no different.
     
  10. Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude

    Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jul 9, 2004
    I've really been losing interest in the "goings on" of today's America. Sensory overload what with the 24/h news networks and all that shit.


    But before I stop caring about this entirely, heres an idea: Instead of shipping the illegals we catch right back to mexico... why not stick them in forced-labor camps and make them build up a physical border.

    With that, everyone wins. Instead contracting the work out to expensive third-party laborers, the government only needs to provide some water and basic food-stuffs for the 'workforce'.
     
  11. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    And I agree it is kind of an invasion per say. It is exactly why the democrats focus all their time and energy pandering to the blacks and mexicans while nothing is said about the asians or other minorities simply because we didn't overrun the United States.

    "Asians, there arn't enough of you to bother mentioning so instead all were going to think about is how to get the "black" and "hispanic" vote". Talk about discrimination.
     
  12. SkynetV4

    SkynetV4 Mildly Dipped

    589
    Jan 25, 2005
    My country is experiencing this on the border with Colombia. Darien, our border with Colombia is routinely penetrated both by guerrillas (FLN, FARC, ELN, whatnot), paramilitary (AUC, amongst others) and refugees from that war.

    Positively, all the local brothels filled up with very hot girls from Cali and other regions of Colombia. They are nice, sweet and not all as their Panamanian rivals. Several Colombians have opened businesses and are trying to eke out a living. They work hard and the women will take any man as a husband as long as he is willing to work hard too. Our local girls have a nasty reputation of gold digging.

    Negatively, these Colombians are biased against Panamanians and usually only hire other refugees. Also not all of these Colombians are decent. Some are suspected of being cartel-deserters and most of our high-profile crimes and kidnappings have a Colombian mastermind behind them.

    What's sad is that the war in Colombia is THE SAME war that Liberales and Conservadores were fighting at the beginning of the 20th century. From what I have read on Gabriel Garcia Marquez's memoirs, its a war of the haves vs the have-nots.

    That said, whomever wants to be an CNPC on my party when this shit blows over doesn't get to wield a 10mm SMG ;).
     
  13. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    DarkCorp- you are such an Asian nationalist? Are you saying that Asians got no breaks? That the US didn't open its doors to refugees from Asia in the past? Or that Asians don't get access to aid programs that help them open up small businesses?

    Are you so pissed off because of Asian immigrant experience? Dude- every immigrant received shit coming over. My folks are immigrant too, and I got to tell you, it wasn't easy for them either.

    That's the fucking problem- we're all willing to say, "Hey what about my race! My ethnicity? My interests?"

    And that's what's going to fuck us in the end. Because its not about your interests, but the values of a country.

    Its ironic that this plays on the same kind of social divisiveness that the Republicans have been feeding on for years.

    Is this an invasion- I would think an invasion is done by an organized army bent on overturning or capturing territory.

    From what I see, the Mexicans or Latin Americans are not much different from the Irish, Italians or Germans who immigrated to the US, went through Ellis Island and did the rest of the immigrant experience.

    (Sorry, but I can't help but think our standards would be a hell of a lot different if the immigrants were Swedes. I am pretty sure the Chinese population who throw a shitstorm if most of the immigrants were Chinese).

    Today's immigrant has to wait up to ten years to gain citizenship at the cost of around $10K. That's bullshit.

    As for paying taxes- a lot of the illegal immigrants do get jobs using phony social security numbers. So they often pay social security and income taxes, but will never collect them. Many illegals are buying homes, which means they pay property taxes. And yes, they pay sales taxes.

    And this crap that they they are undermining our jobs? Please. WHen I was working in the restaurant business, I was the only white guy back there- the rest were Hispanics because no one wanted the job.

    And if you think they're the ones causing our economy trouble- you're looking in the wrong direction. Instead of blaming low income workers, maybe the blame goes to the companies that ship jobs out to countries with lower salaries than ours. Countries like China or Bangledesh, or India. Ever notice how the person selling you shit over the phone has an Indian accent? Used to be those jobs were in Omaha.

    As for sending money back to Mexico or anywhere else- that's not much different from Chinese sending money back to China, Africans sending money back to Africa, Muslims sending money back to the Middle East- etc.

    Mexico is our neighbor and those remittances back to the Mexico is one of the largest sources of foreign aid going to Mexico. ANd in exchange for that aid we get the labor of thousands of generally underpaid workers. SO this is a bad thing? Or are you saying that's worse that our major corporations sending jobs abroad where they can continue to exploit laborers at cheap rates rather than pay Americans a fair rate?

    Don't get me wrong- I think our immigration policy is fucked up. I support better border control, but I also support lower fees for immigrants wanting to come in, and I support ending policies that are rather discriminatory.

    Discriminatory? The government makes it easy for people to come over if they have technical skills or if they have enough money. When I was practicing I was approached by someone to work a partnership in which we'd help Asian immigrants come abroad if they had enough money to invest. If you can pay your way over, then you can come over. If you're middle or upper class, you can come over. If not, you'll have to slip over the border.

    Yeah- that's because the Irish, Italians and Germans who came over where just totally loaded when they came over.

    Hey, remember that statue of liberty?

    You know, one of the things that defines a nation is its values and its history- the things that the country believes in. Even issues of national security involves the security of things valued- and that includes a country's sense of self- its identity.

    Let's be fair- immigrants came to America because they were looking for the opportunity to prosper in a country that protected their rights. That's true then, and its true now. And we, as a country, should be proud of that. It's those folks who have made the US great.

    It's not about getting nice tax breaks if you buy an SUV. Its not about buying into a gated community that keeps the "wrong element" out. Its not about inheriting great wealth from some dead ancestor. That shit didn't make the US great. It was people trying to make a better life for themselves by working hard.

    So yes, I say lets get more of those people. Because we need them.

    Do you want a country that denies people access merely because they are poor or because they come for a Hispanic nation?

    You want to end illegal immigration from Mexico, than what the US should do is support policies that provide incentives for people to stay in Mexico. Instead of shipping all our business to China, maybe we should send our businesses to Mexico. Who knows, maybe we'd get less lead paint poisoning in the process.

    @ Prez- I think you're stretching the notion that they are sacrificing the well-being of others. WHile some illegal immigrants do get exploited, I suspect many get paid the same rates as Americans. What they do is keep salaries low.

    And while their children get a free education- if a person is born in the US, they become a citizen. If you were to travel abroad, your kid would get an education. The idea is that a child should not suffer for a lack of education merely because of a sin of their parents. Do you punish the parent or the child for the parent's sin?

    So yes, I agree, that border security is important. Certainly there are criminal organizations that are exploiting immigrants and are slipping over the border. These folks need to be stopped. But what often happens is that these folks, once over, live on the margins of society- which is where the crime problem resides.

    We have a major problem in the US- our population is aging. As the Baby Boomers continue to age, more of the working of the population is going to have to support them- either through the family or through taxes to the government. Our economy also needs labor if it is to continue to grow and be competitive.

    The choice is either to marginalize Latino immigrants or to incorporate them into the economic and political system. ANd if you really want to stop the flow of immigrants, than what is needed is to make Mexico a better country- instead of state building in Iraq we should be doing that in Mexico. Because what Mexican wants to leave their family behind to come to the US, a country where they don't know the language, and work when they could theoretically do about as well in Mexico.

    And that's always been the drive of immigration. People come to the US primarily for economic opportunity. Europeans came to the US when Europe's economy was weak or in shambles. Now they don't because Europe's standard of live compares favorably to the US. Indian immigrants now go back to India because there are more opportunities. Even Chinese and Vietnamese immigratns, return home because they see more opportunities there.

    People come here because their opportunities at home are awful. That's how it has always been. That we make it so difficult now against Mexicans is driven by the same kinds of discriminatory impulses that drove Americans to discriminate against the Chinese, Catholics and other people that Americans thought were "other" or "different." And what did that create - urban ethnic ghettos, ethnically defined organized crime, social and ethnic tensions?

    Fuck that. We got to move past that bullshit.

    As Americans we need to be better than that. We need to stick by the principles that guided us historically and which define us as a people.

    We should be proud of this immigrant history. Because its immigrants that made the US the country it is today. And we didn't get the best and brightest, but the refuse, the refugees who wanted greater economic opportunities.

    We need to stick to our values that define us and unite us, not this bullshit that keeps us divided or allows us to feed our worst instincts.

    All men. Not merely those men who were unfortunate enough to live on the wrong side of a border.
     
  14. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    I was more talking about the money we spend on them. The money we spend on law enforcement because lets face it - a lot of them are criminals. Every single one of them ignored American laws coming into the country - its safe to say that they won't think twice about breaking other ones. A Phx police officer was killed by an illegal immigrant last year. He had been deported and crossed over illegally again!

    Many people I know in PHX know someone who has been involved in traffic accidents with illegals with no insurance. Thats unacceptable in a high volume traffic area like PHX. What happens if you get hit by an illegal w/ no insurance? They get deported and YOU get stuck with the bill. THAT is disregard for other well being. They have NO IDEA the strain their actions put on our society and even if they did know i doubt they would care.


    Heres the thing: When I have kids and they get old enough to go to school - that isn't a FREE education. I'll have been paying for that education for a while with taxes. Of course - illegals don't pay taxes (for the most part) so for them it really is a free education. Why should they have it better than citizens who have been paying taxes their whole lives?

    The main point is that I understand that these people just want a better life. The problem is they want to go around the law in order to get it. That is unacceptable in this country. Sure its a lot harder to get into the US now than it was 20 years ago - but guess what, we've got a SHITLOAD more people now than we did then. We don't even know how many people are in this country thanks to you know who. Thats probably a big reason why there are more hoops you have to jump through to come over legally - because we're still trying to sort out all the illegals who bypassed the process.

    Your right - the main problem is that Mexico is so fucked up. But the USA has its own fair share of problems. And those fence jumpers aren't helping one bit.
     
  15. Quantos Leap

    Quantos Leap It Wandered In From the Wastes

    162
    Apr 6, 2005
    I'd have the same problem if those swedes assimilated into thug culture at the rate Mexicans do. Good luck finding a thuggish swede outside Rinkeby though.

    Sadly, Mexicans don't do too well in a cost-benefit analysis. I'd say mostly because of the sheer disproportional amount that get in - estimated 20 million illegal Mexican immigrants in the U.S. - an amount that bypasses assimilation and is nearly entirely made up of the impoverished. Importing that much poverty wouldn't be healthy regardless of ethnicity/nationality.

    I think Mexicans are great people and the idea of shooting them is ridiculous, but there's no rationalization or argument that would convince me that illegal immigration like this is acceptable.
     
  16. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    214
    Nov 8, 2007
    My wife is now a Permanent Resident of the U.S., right after we married we filled out the forms (about 7 different multi-page forms) for residency and paid over $1000 (form fees in total). We had to shell out $1000 dollars so that she would have the possibility of being accepted. There was no guarantee of anything at all, image you don't have much money and are new here, how many of these illegals have $1000 to plunk down for maybe/maybe not being accepted? None, that's how many, why are they illegal, because our government has left them no choice, shit, how hard is it to come up with some sort of easy to obtain work visa for these folks? These costs don't include having to run around to different offices, missed work days due to interviewing at the immigration offices and so forth, a pittance, but still a cost involved there as well.

    Most illegals I have known (I haven't known a lot, but my fair share in the restaurant business) are much harder working and more dependable than most American workers. Blaming illegals for our problems is just sheer stupidity.

    As for my wife, after 3 years she was officially named a Permanent Resident, which is only valid for 10 years, then you have to re-up, unless you have gone for citizenship already, which she is going to do in the next 6 months. The process is extremely complicated and expensive.

    -Shoveler
     
  17. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    It doesn't matter how strict the rules are or how difficult it is to get into America. Those are the laws and they are there for a purpose. Just because it might be troublesome for most to abide by them doesn't make it ok to ignore them.

    I'm sick of people making excuses for illegals. You want the laws to change? Fine. Work on changing the law. but don't turn the other way when people break it. Thats a slippery slope that we shouldn't go down.

    [youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZHPm_TEQ0PA[/youtube]

    I'm not blaming anyone for my problems. But I'm not going to ignore a societal problem when I see it. Illegal immigrants are a problem. People ignoring that problem is sheer stupidity IMO.

    Good for you and your wife following the rules. I hope you both have a great life in the USA.
     
  18. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    214
    Nov 8, 2007
    I should clarify my wife was here on a student visa, not illegally.

    Work visas are the way to go, you can tax them, they can live here, just makes it easier. After a while they can follow the normal channels to citizenship, but expecting them to pay that much money up front is absurb, it might as well be a million dollars to someone with no money.

    The problem some can not accept is that they are here already, and will continue to be here, we have to deal with them here, shipping a few hundred or a few thousand back home every day is like trying to stick a bandaid on gushing wound, it's not the answer, because we'll never be able to deport enough to make a difference. Do people think all of those buses an planes full of people getting deported are free? There is a huge cost involved, greater than leaving them where they are? Arguable. I'm not saying we should have more open borders, all I'm saying is that the path should be easier to be able to provide for your family.

    Some of these poor bastards are dying in the desert due to dehydration to try to make a few bucks for their families, that's desperation, some might even say courage, what was this country founded on? Law obiding citizens of the English crown? Or traitors that should all be shot? It was found by regular people wanting to make their lives better, did they do it legally? I doubt they cared. We have more incommon with todays immigrants than we care to admit.

    My family is of German descent, in 1892 they came to the U.S., no papers, no english, no nothing except their clothes. They were willing to work hard, and earn their lot. Most of the people crossing now want the exact same thing.

    I'm okay with jumping through some hoops, but it's hard to jump through hoops without any legs (money).

    (Sig quote material trademarked sorry heh)
     
  19. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Hey man I can feel your pain. Bureaucracy sucks.

    However, as someone else said its the law. My parents had to go through a shitload of hoops. They needed a sponsor. A sponsor that made enough income to support a new immigrant family. They needed to make repeated trips to the INS. Needed to make sure they had all proper forms of identification.

    The fact that illegals bypass these rules or figure they are above the law and do not need to follow said rules IS a problem.

    See the thing is you said it yourself, your family came here poor but still made it. And thats what I am saying, if your family can do it why not everyone else? I mean did your family come here illegally? Did your family blame the white man for all their problems instead of just accepting that being an immigrant equals dealing with tough shit?

    Did america fuck over mexico in the past? Yes they did. But does that mean everyone should pay for something that happened a hundred years ago? I don't think so.

    PS: You make it seem as if only mexicans are dying on their way here. Plenty of chinese, africans, irish or whatever came over here in "coffin ships" so that case isn't really going to fly.

    Also, plenty of other minorities come here on ships and are deported back. If your going to make the excuse they are already here so letem stay then that should go for eveyrone, not just mexicans.
     
  20. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    214
    Nov 8, 2007
    I didn't say just Mexicans, just happened to be the topic of discussion, and quite frankly the vast majority are from Mexico, Central America and to a lesser extent South America.

    Regarding my family: If they were charging large sums of money to enter Ellis Island at that time, many would not have come, it's as simple as that. Back when my family came from Germany, I doubt they had to pay to enter, that's one big difference in your train of thought there.

    The fact is they are here, we have no choice but to let them stay, I don't think we'll be deporting 20 million people (conservative estimate) anytime soon, do you? And if we're not deporting them, hows about we make them productive members of society, it's obvious they wanna work.

    Most of the workers I've known never thought they were above the law, if anything far below it. That seems to be a popular misconception, to think that people show up at work with no fear of being caught and deported at any second with their nosed turned up at the laws of the US. Does that sound rational to you? Most of these guys work in fear of being caught, if they are caught their families don't eat. I dunno about some of you guys but I couldn't wait 10 years to work/eat while my immigration papers are maybe or maybe not being processed.

    There is no simple answer, but the solutions tried so far obviously have not worked. So while the US deports 5-10k people a day and builds a giant wall in the desert for no rational reason another 5-10k people will enter illegally.

    Some of the views of my fellow Americans on this topic astound me, some of the most elitist comments I have ever heard have been tossed around. Don't you think that if they could enter legally in a reasonably short period and at a reasonable expense they would? Do I have the answers to everything, no, would it improve greatly if it were easier to enter, yes.

    Edit: Somehow I fear many Americans have forgotten what it is to be American. Not long ago I watch a episode of 60 minutes or some such program where they met and interviewed an illegal family from Mexico living in Arizona, the father worked contruction while the mother stayed at home with the kids, they had 3 or 4 kids I don't remember how many for sure. Anyhow, after talking to the mother and father about their lives in the US, the reporter asked the children several questions one of them being what is your favorite food, all of them replied at once pizza!.......at that moment I could only think of one thing....the assimilation has begun.....muwahahahah!

    -Shoveler