Mexican Border Wars and US Guns

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by welsh, May 9, 2008.

  1. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    If you did say so then I am wrong in this assumption. But your whole speeding train/walking comment has nothing to do with immigrants that only require an airplane or boat to get into this country. This leads me to believe the people you are talking about are hispanic.
     
  2. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    They don't pay income taxes

    1. A good portion of the money they make in OUR country is being spent in MEXICO.
    2. Income tax pays for a lot more shit than sales tax.


    I actually don't really follow Limbaugh that much. I never listen to his radio show, I've never read any of his books. The only reason I pulled that clip up was that A) it was relevant and B) it was pretty ironic.

    BTW - thanks for responding to ALL of my points. You really have a knack for argument.

    I'm all for work visas.


    I said "people in other states". I didn't say YOU. Mainly I was explaining why my position on Illegal immigration is how it is.

    I get by fine. I wish I didn't have to deal with the Negatives of people who NOT my fellow Americans and shouldn't be here in the first place.
     
  3. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    214
    Nov 8, 2007
    Dark,
    I live in a city that is the majority hispanic, I also live in a city that has a large population of illegals that happen to be hispanic. It is something I am very familiar with. When the topic comes to illegal immigration hispanic illegals are what I know and have experienced. Sometimes in the most carnal ways....but that's another topic.....anyhow, I mention hispanics because that's what I relate to the most. The doesn't equate to them being the only people having hard times, quite the contrary. I think we agree more than we disagree, but you kinda kept angling the other way for some reason.
     
  4. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    214
    Nov 8, 2007
    Prez,
    Thing is dude, I used to think just like you, I've had a couple bad experiences in my time with illegals. As I've aged and started a family, I had to stop and ask myself, what would I do in that situation, getting paid crap in Mexico, or where ever, and will never get paid more than crap. Or do I file papers and try to enter the US legally where it might take 10 YEARS or maybe never to be accepted. Or thirdly, come in illegally and AT LEAST HAVE A CHANCE to try etch out a better living?

    I not asking for you to agree, just think about that side. To do what some of these illegals do to gain entry (hispanic, asian or whoever) comes from sheer desperation. The carrot dangling at the end of traveling a few hundred miles to a better life would be difficult to ignore in those circumstances, and I can't say I wouldn't do the same.

    Work visas, are the way to go, that way we get taxes, we get labor and they can file for other documents (drivers licenses and so forth).
     
  5. Loxley

    Loxley Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    911
    Apr 11, 2003
    And when they run out then what? Renewing them? When the situation in the country goes bad and there is no need for foreign workers shall the visas not be renewed?
     
  6. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Funny thing I just thought about.

    The whole invasion thing is not so different than the Tibetans claiming they are getting "a population invasion" by the chinese which will will soon outnumber them and cause problems.

    Weird that the Tibetans are correct in this instance yet if legal americans complain about a rapidly increasing invasion of illegal immigrants they are racist.
     
  7. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    There are millions of people who live in Mexico. Are you trying to tell me that its not possible to live there? Or are you just saying that its SO MUCH EASIER in the USA that its worth entering the country illegally. Because I'm not one for taking the easy way out. My whole life I have dealt with trials and tribulations and I have become a better man for it.

    I've thought about it plenty. In fact, when I was younger I read the book "reefer madness". After that - my position was a lot like yours is now. But over time living in AZ, watching the news, and my own personal experiences has shifted my opinion of the subject.

    Depending on how my life was living in Mexico - i don't know what I'd do. But I do know that many people living in poverty in Mexico aren't helping themselves by having more and more kids. They are essentially bailing on their own personal responsibility and having American taxpayers pick up their slack. Sorry - but I'm not going to be in favor for that.

    Agreed.


    Shoveler, still waiting for you to respond to ALL of my points. I took the time to respond to yours.
     
  8. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Prez- the whole- "Immigrants fled tyranny to come to America thing..." Is kind of weak.

    The Italians before 1920?? Germans at the turn of the century? The Irish were being dominated by a repressive regime or because the country was suffering from a famine?

    My folks came over in the 1950s because they wanted to explore new opportunities in America. A lot of the folks who came over from Europe during that time were not fleeing the Soviet Union or communism, but escaping poor economic conditions in their countries.

    Which is the same motivation why many immigrants come up from Mexico- where GDP's are more than 1/5th that of America and poverty is rampant.

    From World bank

    And Mexico is one of the better performing economies of Central America.

    Truth is that most of the people are coming here because of economic conditions. Just like many Europeans came to the US because the US had abundant land and low populations while Europe had dense populations and little land. A choice- be a tenent farmer in Europe or own your own plot in the US? And that helps explain US western migration.

    And yes, illegals actually pay taxes, even income taxes.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077009/
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077009/

    At the same time, many are afraid to take public services least it draw attention to them and get them deported.

    Had these folks been able to gain access to education, pursue better quality jobs, take advantages of the opportunities in the US to accumulate wealth as enjoyed by many Americans, than they would probably be paying more taxes.

    So yes, while I agree that we should tighten up the border, and I argue that we should do what we can to improve Mexico to reduce the incentives of immigration, what is needed is a mechanism to get these people in the system and productive. From what I have seen most illegal immigrants are fairly hard working but reduced to pretty low-end jobs because of their status. If they become an underclass its only because our institutions and policies keep them that way.

    @Darkcorp- to be frankly honest, I don't think the federal government is inherent discriminatory. I think many in American society are. While its become taboo to be discriminatory against blacks (don't use the "N" word), its fairly open season on other immigrants, especially Latinos.

    Example- my wife is an attorney and was an attorney in the US, but when she first started looking for work (legally), most people thought she could only work as a housekeeper or a nanny.

    So no the US government isn't inherently racist. In fact I think most bureaucrats look at our immigration policy and think its a big mess, but they do as they are told.

    What decides policy is elected representatives, Congressmen. And its very difficult for a Congressman to run on a policy that is tolerant of immigration but easy to run on an anti-immigration policy. I pointed out why before- a tyranny of the majority against a population that has little political clout. Generally, your conservative politicans are going to have a harder time running on a platform that is immigration tolerant than your liberal.

    The problem is the policy on immigration, much like it for drugs or even guns, is fucked up. But its also too politically hot to deal with responsibly.


    The state merely serves as an arena, a vehicle for the interests of society. And we have a lot racism in the US against
     
  9. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    214
    Nov 8, 2007
    double post sorry
     
  10. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    214
    Nov 8, 2007
    I'm not saying it's impossible to EXIST there, what I am saying is that there is no chance for improvement of your life there. Improving the quality of life for your family is just human nature, would we expect less of ourselves?

    PS. I'll work on your other points sometime this weekend, busy end of week for me.
     
  11. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    @shoveler

    Now this is a good topic to discuss, whether it is possible for a poor farmer to move to the big city to get a job. Whether it is possible for one to get by as opposed to doing much better but through illegal means.

    As I said before, immigrants come here for a reason and your damn right that every one of those reasons are good.

    But if we do not follow due process, we might as well be allowing everyone in. After all the world is a nasty place and lots of people are in need of help. When does it end? How many people can we support? How much space is in America?

    Look at China for example. There is a big difference when you have to equally distribute wealth to a billion people.

    Even Mexico has problems and their population is roughly 103 million.

    Last I checked the population of the United States was estimated at 304,025,506 whereas in 1900 (around the time where we had a major boom in immigration) it was 76,000,000.

    So clearly things have changed since the times when a majority of our ancestors immigrated to the US. As people continue to pile in, laws must also change to accomadate the ever increasing amount of people looking for a new life in this country.

    PS: Also, currently it is a lot easier for people to get into the country vis passing a fence compared to sneaking in by boat. It could be by plane too but I have never heard of it. So if we grant illegal immigrants amnesty, who are going to benefit the most from it? Shoveler already mentioned the 60 million hispanics that are sympathetic to hispanic illegal immigration to this country.

    See thats why there are immigration laws. To find out how many people want to come and how many people can afford to come.
     
  12. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    The people who founded America came to escape a tyrant. Many of the people that came after the USA was founded were looking for better life opportunities.


    Back in the early stages of our country - we accepted massive amounts of immigrants Why? Because we could. For as much land and resources available there was room for all these people to come and live.

    But things have changed. Our population has grown exponentially since this country was founded and now you add a drastic unwanted increase - that only exacerbates things.

    But it's ALWAYS been the same situation - the USA gets to decide how many people we allow in. In the past - we didn't have a problem with everyone coming here - now we do. So sorry Mexico but just because things were different 20 years ago - doesn't give you the right to go around the law that has bee put into place now.


    This whole thing is a lot like if your going to throw a big party. At first, your friends show up and your all having fun. Later, friends of friends start showing up and you don't really know the people coming to your house - but theres plenty of booze and the place isn't that crowded so: what the hell, come on in. Then later more and more people are showing up and the place is packed to the gills.
    You get a knock at your door and its 10 dudes that you don't know. What are you going to say? "Sorry guys, place is full and I don't know you." Now, sure - you would have let those guys in a couple hours earlier but the situation has changed since then.
     
  13. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    I don't know about that. Mexico has 100 million people in it. Are you telling me that nobody is prospering there? What a load of crap. The reality is - they have a lot more people in poverty there. But they do have a middle class. They have people who are educated and can make good lives for themselves. They have opportunity. Now, its obviously less opportunity than we have in the US - but still. You guys make it seem like every body there is surviving off breadcrumbs. Get real.


    Looking forward to it
     
  14. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Guys, we are double posting like hell. Better to just edit your posts. I think we're all reading the threads so there is little reason for the double post.

    Ok, Prez- I agree that the Americans who declared independence on July 4 where trying to escape the rule of a tyrant- even if they were also trying to evade taxes the British had paid for fighting off the French.

    But they only represented about the 1/3 of the country that supported independence. Nealry 1/3 were still loyalists.

    If you go back further- you can look to the colonies in Plymouth, Mass where they were looking for a place to practice their faith- and discriminated against those who didn't share theirs. Or you can go to Jamestown where the colonists were so busy looking for gold they nearly starved to death.

    Today we still have folks who come to the US for the same purpose- Muslims come so they can worship their faith in ways they can't back home. Mexicans come over to work at McDonald's or in construction or as housekeepers.

    So things haven't quite changed. And as I have pointed out above- these folks are paying taxes and are not enjoying services. Furthermore, they would be paying more taxes if they were legal and had a greater chance of the social mobility that this country was so proud of.

    As for parties- frankly, I like open house parties when I was single because more chicks show up that I don't know, and I admit that I preferred boning chicks I didn't know before the party, even those with foreign accents. So more chicks to bone I think is a good thing. If only you're getting is dudes in your party, then you need to throw a better party.

    :)

    @Darkcorp and @ El Prez- here's the thing about immigration or any policy.

    A law is nothing but a moral choice that has been turned into a binding rule through the political process of that state. All such rules are created by the conflict among social groups over what is moral and what is not moral. Each group comes to the game with their preferences and also their resources, and then they struggle over what the rules are- idealy reaching a compromise that everyone can live with and which, hopefully, fixes the problem.

    IN immigration law, immigrants are usually going to get fucked because they can't really participate in the political process because they can't vote.

    Now balance that to the fact that we live in a time of fear. It was foreigners who hit us on 9-11, even if it was homegrown duschbags that his us in Oklahoma City. In times of fear of foreigners (got to defend against them terrorists), than immigration rules get tough. Furhtermore, when workers have been suffering from declining real wages for the past 30 years (essentially the rate of salary increases have fallen behind the increase in the cost of living) a lot of Americans are fearing for their quality of life standards.

    And that's the problem for immigrants-
    (1) fear of foreigners
    (2) declinging real wages.

    I know the fear of foreigners sounds odd, and a lot of you might not see it. But being married to a foreignor, yes. And I don't think its that different from Irish Americans being afraid of Italians, Italians being afraid of Purto Ricans, Californians being afraid of Chinese, etc.

    The greater the fear, the greater the discrimination.

    Declinging real wages has hit working class and middle class Americans very hard, and they see immigrants taking jobs in construction, fast food, and elsewhere. They see immigrants speaking a foreign language. Sometimes the immigrants act like assholes- which doesn't help them.

    SO this all translates to legislation that has been highly anti-immigrant.

    Which is where we get to the issue of due process. Due process is the law as created to appeal to majorities- which gets to the fears of voters about foreignors and jobs.

    Is it real? Not really. The problem of wages has been a long-term problem due to the explort of vast segments of our economy abroad to lower wage destinations (like Mexico, India, China). Even so, there are still lots of jobs that go around. The fear of foreignors, well that's a hold over from 9-11. But last I checked there hasn't been a Mexican terrorist since Pancho Via.

    Don't forget that we still live under a constitutional system, and under our constitution US law must be consistent with international standards too. So there are some things that we, as a developed and civilized nation, shouldn't be doing.

    But more importantly, there are things that we should do. If America is to be exceptional- as a beacon for liberty, opportunity, entrepreneurship, and if the US is to set an example that a working stiff can work hard to do well and isn't caught up in the class divisions that Europe used to have, than we have to stand up for ideas.

    No doubt we have countries. But targetting immigrants isn't the answer to reforming our economy. What the US needs to do is more high-end manufacturing, better services and to stop exporting all these jobs to destinations. For the last 40 years we've had an agenda that supports the wealthy and fucks the poor and middle class. But its the poor and middle class that made this country great.

    We need people who will work hard, strive, save and put their kids through school to achieve a better quality of life. That's the basic immigrant experience. But now we discriminate against them.

    So we created an immigration system that is aimed at keeping people out of the US, or making legal immigration either too expensive or too difficult. If we want to be fair to these folks, we could make immigration cheaper and easier, and chances are we'd have more legal immigrants and less illegals.

    Because those folks really do want to be part of this American dream. But our political system conspires to keep them out of it. Why- because their poor and foreign.

    Honestly, I think we've had enough of a political system that is all about keeping the rich happy and fucks over the poor and middle class (citizens and immigrants alike).

    As for Mexico- you're talking about a country with a lot of poverty, a lot of income inequality, cities with lots of unemployed folks and farms that are barely getting by. This is a country where a few wealthy families control most of the wealth and one party has ruled almost uninterrupted since the last civil war. Corruption, poverty, crime are high.

    And to be honest, chances are if you lived in Mexico, you'd hop over the border too. I know I would.
     
  15. Blakut

    Blakut Vault Senior Citizen

    Jan 9, 2008
    Or make drugs legal...
     
  16. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    I have always wondered what good would come of legalizing drugs.

    They are still massively addictive and also most only offer momentary highs then massive lows. Then one argues that some would take more of the drug to avoid the massive low, hence the creation of a vicious cycle.

    Also, drug usage does reduce a persons work performance and also will kill some.

    Lastly, with all drugs, the more one intakes, the more of a resistance they build to the drug. One must then take larger doses of said drug to continue the high. When does it end and how would the government enforce a doctrine of controlled use?

    Though one can possibly argue that marijuana is not addictive, how would the government keep the said drug out of the reach of those who are pretty much stupid enough to abuse the shit out of it.

    Lastly, what drugs should we legalize?
     
  17. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Legalizing drugs alone- not much good. England tried to legalize and control heroin and the end result was increased addiction and crime.

    While I can see legalization of grass, other drugs should stay off. There have been some successes- the Netherlands and Switzerland have enjoyed some success. However, I think those countries have greater capacity to regulate how drugs are distributed and can use their policies to get people off Heroin. I am not sure if that would work in the US.

    That said, much of our war on drugs has been a failure.