Mexican Border Wars and US Guns

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by welsh, May 9, 2008.

  1. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    If they think that they should not have to go through due process to come into this country then they are breaking the law.

    If they know full well that they are coming into the US illegally and still do so, they knowingly break the law.

    If they break the law then it shows they have no regard or do not respect said law. Just as people on the ships get deported back, so should illegals who "hop the fence". Thousands if not more people want to come to America everyday and every one of em for good reasons. However, no matter how good of a reason, one still needs to observe due process.

    Second, why does not working equate to not eating? Is there some reason why the illegals cannot work in Mexico? Is there a reason they cannot move from the poorer rural areas into the cities and make their living there while they wait for their turn to get into the US? Is Mexico some kind of evil place where somehow jobs just don't exist? Is the US the only country in the world where people won't starve?

    I have a feeling that jobs do exist in Mexico. However, working in the US just pays better. Is this a reason for illegally entering a country? I don't believe so.

    Welsh says we should help our fellow man. If he needs support then we should give it. Well heck, why not just open the borders then. If your starving and poor, come to America. If your suffering under an oppressive regime, come to America. If you simply don't like the pay your getting in your home country and want to make more money, come to America. If your poor and cannot afford to come to this country, no problem. The wonderful US citizens will pay so that YOU may come here for free. This is the land of milk and honey and everyone gets a share in the goodness.

    I mean why bother make jumping through the hoops easier when clearly having no hoops to jump through in the first place works better. Why have immigration checks at all? I hope I am not the only who sees thi slippery slope here.

    As I have said time and tme again, legal immigration is wonderful. The problem I have is people use the reasons for LEGALLY immigrating to support ILLEGALLY immigrating to the US, which is still bullshit.
  2. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    Nov 8, 2007
    No money no food, simple. Luckily for you, you haven't had to experience that circumstance.

    The "pricepoint" of legal immigration is absurdly high. Just high enough so the poor can't afford it.

    I didn't say we "shouldn't" deport people, just that it makes no difference.

    Lastly you keep making some disctintion between hispanics, africans and asians, I really don't care who it is or where they're from. In addition I don't really care what mode of transportation they use either. You keep mentioning asians and boats like I have something against them.

    EDIT: To the no hoops to jump through comment, if risking life and limb hanging onto the OUTSIDE of trains and trudging on foot through the desert for miles and miles aren't considered hoops by you then all I can say

    Just so you don't get the idea that I'm some northerner that doesn't know what he's talking, I live in San Antonio, Texas. I, as a caucasian male am in the minority here by far. This town is 60% hispanic, just like the USA will be 60% hispanic within the next 20 years. Illegal immigration or not, dems da facts.
  3. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    Oh yeah? Care to elaborate on that one?

    3 or 4 kids huh? Don't you think thats a little irresponsible to have so many kids that you can't afford to provide for? Maybe they could have gotten by in Mexico with just 1 or 2 but hey - forget about our responsibility when we can just go to American and get them an education at the expense of everyone but us.

    People don't look at this aspect of illegal immigration. Mexican people have way too many kids. They can't afford to take care of them - yet they still have them. Not that this doesn't happen in the US but think about the social stigma that is attached to that crack head woman in the ghetto who has 10 kids and collects welfare checks for all of them but neglects to care properly for them. She is looked down upon for abusing the system [rightly so]. Why do people have so much sympathy for Mexicans doing essentially the same thing?

    I'm not impressed. Thats what people do in 3rd world countries - they walk. There are tons of places around the globe where people walk for miles and miles. Not to jump a border - just to get around.
  4. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    So deportation isn't making a difference (not working), and we should just let them stay here.

    If illegal immigration is left unchecked, yes, that is the future.

    Wow, so Mexico is a jobless wasteland where people have no money for food? So Mexicans will starve and die right unless they come here illegally?

    I am trying to point out that just beccause people can hop the fence and get into the US easier doesn't mean they should get preferential treatment over the immigrants that have to take boat rides to get here.

    Wow, I am glad you care so much for Mexicans but say nothing about how many illegal immigrants who die from disease and starvation in overcrowded boats with no facilities. This is what I am talking about. So many bleeding hearts for Mexican illegals but not a peep for those who have to cross a friggin ocean.

    And wow, the illegals take such risks so we might as well let all of them in.
  5. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    Nov 8, 2007
    LOL@Prez-They were working for a living, now they're the same as crackheads abusing the system. Man you're reaching there, even for some of the comments so far, that's reaching. Looked like they were taking care of their kids pretty
  6. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    Nov 8, 2007
    DarkCorp, please show me where I said one group is more deserving than another, you're so overzealous in your nationalism or whatever you making things up as you go. Keep on keeping on I guess. No where did I say people on boats don't deserve to be because they're on boats. What I said was that Mexicans/Hispanics were the majority coming over, not that they were the most deserving. But see what you want.

    You have to realize I have 3 half chinese nephews, my brother married an asian american about 10 years ago. Her family has been here for several generations though.

    EDIT: Beside, who said anything about getting preferrential treatment? I didn't say that. Europeans usually get the faster track to residency and citizenship anyway for the sake of arguement.
  7. Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude

    Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jul 9, 2004
    I've got a black aunt, and a half black cousin. Maybe we should get together for a family picnic. I'll bring the fried rice, you bring the grape drink. :twisted:

    On a semi-serious note : Who are you? The fact that you've had that account for six months, and have thus far only posted 6 times (and all in this thread) leads me to believe you're a regular who is on an alt account (sneaky!).

    Of course I could be totally wrong, wouldn't be the first time. :lalala:
  8. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    Nov 8, 2007
    Nah, nothing that devious, just a regular lurker that never posts, I think I had signed up because a thread I wanted to read was only available to members or something. I guess I'll take it as a welcome to the forums. The joke is my family is like the U.N., we've got like 4 countries involved. heh
  9. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    Show me how its that much different. Crack heads w/ 10 kids are abusing the welfare system while illegals are abusing government funded programs just for the plain and simple fact that they don't have the right to be here in the first place.

    Maybe they could have cared for less kids in MEXICO - you know, where they are legally supposed to live?
  10. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Prez- Limbaugh? Dude. That guy is an asshole. I mean listen to what he's saying- lets deny an entire class of people rights that Americans have declared as fundamental? Fundamental meaning inherent rights, if you will God given rights? Fuck. You start making distinctions now, when do you stop. And there goes your democracy.

    Darkcorp- Dude, you got to watch that Asian nationalism thing man. It's not about the color of the skin or their national origins, but how we treat our fellow man. Extreme Asian nationalism is just another form of ethnic bias (or racism).

    You guys keep harping on the idea that these folks are here illegally and thus don't deserve rights.

    Ok, so how about we throw every underaged drinker in maximum security prison? How about we shoot anyone who cheats on their income taxes? How about we execute drunk drivers, or pot smokers, or those carrying concealed weapons.. or..

    We send murders away for 20 years but we also have misdeamenors and violations. What degree of crime are illegals?

    I agree that those who commit crimes in the US should be punished in the US. What kind of punishment do you want to impose on 20 million people, most of whose only crime is that they couldn't afford the money to pay for immigration or were too afraid of being deported?

    Seriously- as an attorney who has friends who do immigration work- the costs of immigrating is years of uncertainty and around $10K- if you're in the US. ANd a lot of these folks will pay those fees. But if you're outside the US, you have to apply for a lottery or get a sponsor- and good luck if you're on the lottery.

    Its a lot easier, as Limbaugh says, if your're the "right" kind of immigrant. Not like the poor, uneducated, jobless masses that were most of our ancestors. And there is hypocricy.

    Admittedly a lot of illegal immigrants are here because they hope that they will be able to stay. So yes, they are probably hoping for Amnesty and hoping they don't get deported.

    And yes, they are having children. I know a woman who came to the US got married, got divorced, got remarried, had a kid. Then it was discovered the first marriage was a fraud (his fault), she got deported and her kid has no Mom.

    Do they pay taxes- yes. They pay income taxes, social security taxes, property taxes, sales taxes. If they aren't, then their employers are breaking the law- and those folks should be incarcerated. ANd its easy finding work if you're not a citizen. My wife had a lot of trouble finding work when she had work authorization, and then the green card.

    Oh, those folks coming over the Southern border- many are Mexicans. Although the country has a GDP per capita of about $8K, there are also huge income inequalities and lots of folks living off rural subsistence- so there are a lot of really poor Mexicans. And a lot of the folks coming over aren't Mexicans- but Costa Ricans, El Salvadorians, Hondurans, etc. They suffer discrimination in Mexico and have high rates of poverty face greater inequality at home.

    And I know DarkCorp- you're going to argue- But what about Asians. Asians are deserving of the same treatment as Latinos. Of course, its also unlikely that Japan, Korea or Taiwan would have developed without US help, but let's ignore that pro-Asian bias for now.

    Prez- Americans remembers what it means to be Americans- part of that has to do with remembering our history- that most of us have forefathers who came abroad to escape poverty and to find economic opportunity. Or that as Americans we have a history of allowing immigrants the chance to pursue the American dream.

    Sure, some of the new immigrants are criminals. Just like some of our forefathers were criminals too- the Mafia is still an Italian organization, the Irish mafia still exists. I think there might even be a Jewish mafia out there- just as there is an Asian mafia.

    But marginalizing immigrants (illegal or otherwise) as second class citizens, forcing them out of the economy to look for "off the books" jobs, or hiding from the government is not going to make fighting crime easier.

    What the US has to do is-

    (1) Firm up the border to make sure that immigration is being control. This is partially a humanitarian mission.

    (2) Get serious about Latin American development- because if the opportunity is in Latin America, than the immigrants won't come. In the process- cut all this FDI going to China - supporting a communist/facist regime is a bigger problem than illegal immigration.

    (3) Reduce the costs and complexity to immigrate legally. THat means future immigrants shouldn't have to go through the loopholes- which are aimed at discriminating against immigration. It also means that people who are here should- (1) Pay a fine, (2) pay back taxes, (3) get their permanent residence and eventually citizenship. Because there is no way in hell are we going to deport 20 million people.
  11. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    Nov 8, 2007
    Prez, is it fear you speak from? You don't seem to understand that these immigrants hold a certain amount of power. You think you are determined to stand your ground on this issue? The illegals are more determined due to their circumstances than you and the US government. They've got 20 MILLION people here, and that's a conservative estimate, if they chose to bring this country to a stand still THEY COULD. That 20 million doesn't even include the 3 times that amount of hispanics here legally that sympathize with their plight.

    Remember the marches a year or two ago, that was but a small portion of the total, the downtown area of several major cities were basically locked down. How come the US government didn't round up and deport them all? Because they can't.

    By staking their lives and future here, in a new place, many not speaking the language when they arrived, leaving extended family behind to try to scrape out a living doing jobs Americans don't want.

    Prez & Dark, you both keep on mentioning them breaking the law just for being here as if you have never broken the law. We should throw you both in jail and let you rot forever for speeding? The breaking the comments are just ignorant, it's what people use out of fear when they've no other justified issues. Plenty of Americans scam the system, and drive without insurance and all the other crap. Just like many Americans don't pay their taxes, it comes down to, that's life, deal with it.

    I've noticed some of you guys having been quoting stuff to refute, fine, but I've also noticed that you'll only refute the things you can, you ignore where you're obviously wrong.

    Such as the trains and walking comment, you ignore the trains completely, and just mentioned idiotically that people walk all the comes down to fortitude, I don't think you have enough to hold onto the outside of a train for days, or march through the desert with just whatever is strapped to you body. They're more determined, they'll win, hell they already have. And I'm okay with that, cause they're just like me, except a little browner, and that I think is the root of all the animosity.

    Rush I need advice on which pain killers will get me addicted faster I'll give him a listen. And before I get labeled some leftwing lib, I am Republican and *I* don't even respect the guy. I agree with Repubs on almost everything, taxes, spending, but immigration is one I generally don't agree with them on. The American Dream isn't only for those who are Americans now.
  12. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    The other problem with the anti-illegal argument is that there is a sense that illegal immigrants are taking American jobs.

    Honestly, unemployment is down to about 4-5%, which means there are probably more than enough jobs to go around. Its ironic that many of the new jobs were in construction- which is heavily hispanic.

    The thing about immigration is that the rules and bureaucracy on immigration will be stiff because immigrants are the one community that can't defend their rights through the political process.

    Its easy to pass legislation making it more difficult for immigrants to come in legally. It appeases blue color workers who are afraid of losing their job, and it protects cultural nationalists who fear that immigrants will fundametnally change the way America is. Immigrants, lacking the ability to vote, can't vote for candidates that support their concern.

    So they becomes an easy punching bag for people who are afraid of losing jobs or America's national identity.

    But the problem with jobs is that we have an aging population and need younger workers to sustain America's economic strength. America's superpower lies not in its military capacity, but the economic engine that supports its military machine. And lately that economy is suffering. It will continue to suffer if we don't have the labor necessary to sustain American growth.

    This means not only more workers, but also workers who are willing to do the dirty jobs that keeps the economy afloat. It also means more education for that population so that they can do the higher end labor in order to replace the people who are retiring.

    As for the idea of America? America's national identity comes from its immigrants. There is little that is inherently American unless it came from Native Americans. One find German influence in Santa Clause and Christmas Trees, Mexican influence in Tex-Mex cuisine, French influence in Creole cooking... America's culture is in constant change- which is a good thing because its culture vibrant.

    Yet immigrants have always been crapped on by the status quo.

    Darkcorp- if you are saying that the anti-Chinese legislation was wrong-

    Given the shit that the Chinese went through to get to the US-
    How can you promote policies that perpetuate the same kinds of discrimination?

    Then how can you support legislation now that seeks to the same thing to immigrants?
  13. Ah-Teen

    Ah-Teen Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 21, 2007
    First off, carrying concealed weapons with a permit is legal in all but I believe three states.

    But executing drunk drivers does sound like a nice solution. I have no pity for them. They kill people.

    Anyway, I was sitting on my ass the other night watching tv, watched a program on illegal immigration. Had a short segment of a guy who puts water out so people don't die out there.

    He came across an illegal, lost, hungry, and without water. The best he could do was give her food and water and tell her to stay where she was for immigration to rescue her. He could not take her to immigration himself and get her out of the desert.

    This bother anyone else? Discuss.
  14. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    So do homosexuals! They got aids! They don't believe in Jay-Zus! Let's kill them!

    And seriously, dude, no. The death penalty, a government-approved, rationalized murder is an imbecillity all by itself. Let's not add to teh dumb by proposing death sentences for infractions that have a wide range of definition.

  15. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Ah Wooz-

    You might not be seeing it. But as Blacks, (thanks to civil rights, affirmative action and their own work) climb out of poverty and enter the middle class (and even run for President), the country needs a new underclass... and the Hispanics fit the bill.
  16. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    Did you listen to what he said in the clip? I don't care WHO is talking - if they make solid points you should at least give the point a chance.

    U.S. citizens who are found guilty of crimes are PUNISHED. Drunk drivers have to pay HEFTY fines (which btw fund a SHITLOAD of municiple programs) and they do GO TO JAIL. The punishment for jumping the border IS NOT STRICT enough. Mexicans don't give a shit if they get deported becuase they can just cross again. Time is on their side. Our prisons are overcrowded enough and the illegals know it.

    Good question. The only thing that we can afford right now is deportation.

    Well the when Limbaugh was talking about the 'right' kind of immigrants - he was referring to fact that although people complain about our policy so much - it's still considerably better than Mexico's.

    I'm not talking about the family of 4... I'm talking about the MILLIONS of illegals here who are sending back money to a family with 4+ children. WTF is that about? I don't doubt that you couldn't provide for 4 kids in Mexico - maybe you shouldn't of had them in the first place?

    Illegals DON'T.

    I agree - but funny how you can condemn employers for breaking the law but support the illegals for doing so. If all the employers suddenly stopped employing illegals (which they should) then all those 'hard working families just trying to eek out a living' would be SOL.

    This is not accurate. The USA formed because they wanted to break free the shackles of tyranny.

    They are perfectly welcome to pursue that dream - but you have to follow the rules.
  17. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Wow, those happen to be the same countries the US plans to use as forward strike bases in case things got antsy between Soviets and Chinese. Whos going to suffer the major brunt of the beating should a conventional war break out? Second, are you trying imply without America, those same saif countries would have no hope of fixing themselves? Third we have already been on the Taiwan debate. The KMT stole bilions of dollars from mainland China to finance their new government. So don't tell me it was only because of a benevolent America that Taiwan is where its at.

    If Mexico can serve such a purpose than no problems man, help the country so they can get their own people out of poverty. Oh yeah one problem, just like you mentioned about China, Mexico is corrupt. Also like China, wealth is only in the hands of the minority. So how is more american aid going to change this?

    I don't know Welsh. You seem to support amnesty for all illegal aliens. If that were they case then we might as well have no restrictions. I think there is a reason for immigration control. I don't believe this country is a hotbed of racism, atleast not on the level of the KKK and during the civil rights era. Dude the government isn't some racist prick that fears all immigrants and says AWAY, AWAY, AWAY.

    I didn't advocate shooting illegal immigrants for one. I said kill the coyotes for making illegal immigration so easy nowadays along with all the other abuses they cause. Last time I checked people did get punished for cheating on their income taxes. Uh, this one is a no brainer dude. If the fuckers drunk, DONT FUCKING DRIVE. There is absolutely no fucking reason some fuckbag should drive drunk and possibly kill someone. Fuck them. Pot smokers, well I think a hefty fine would be adequate. If they are high enough and decide to do something irresponsible enough to harm another person, possibly kill them, fuck em. Carrying concealed weapons. I am not a big enough of a gun fan to get into this one.

    Like I said, why not just get rid of restrictions. Let everyone in. Otherwise there are reasons for laws as I have stated above.

    So 60 million hispanics sympathize with HISPANIC illegal immigration or world illegal immigration? Second of all, if the masses are so powerful, why don't we have open borders already?

    Um, the worst crime I ever had was fucking speeding dude ok. And I am sure you damn fucking well know everyone fucking speeds. Second of all, I never once mentioned anything about breaking the law. Welsh mentioned once that data is needed for stereotyping. Prez mentioned the illegals have a high proportion of breaking the law. I'm not going to get into this one.

    When I am wrong I will admit I am wrong. If you get silence, your getting acknowledgement. I mean you don't seriously expect me to quote everyone one of your sentences do you?

    Did you just purposelly ignore what I fucking said about "coffin ships" and people coming in boats with no facilites and in horrible condition? Coming to America in a boat packed in like sardines with no facilities and possibly suffering abuse by said snakeheads or whatever is no different than your train/walking example. Yeah only the hispanics suffer. Right on man.

    I don't give a fuck what color of their fucking skin is. Its either completely opening the borders or following the fucking rules.

    I agree with you there, that is bullshit. I think the fault are the greedy fucking corporations. Whatever fucking happened to good days pay for good days work. If payment was equal to work, then plenty of americans would go back to those jobs and probably be fucking proud to be in said job. Our soldiers wouldn't be fucking screwed over.

    Its either open border policies or following the rules. The asians of that time still had to follow the rules regardless of how much said rules sucked. Should there be immigration reform, sure. But saying "just make it easier" is too vague. The reprecussions of mass immigration is too complex for a simple fix all answer. The population situtation of America today is very different compared to the boom days of the western expansion and industrial revolution.

    Second, again I don't believe the government thinks minorities are boogeymen and fear them like the bubonic plague. I mean we are living in a world where a black man can become president. The times you mention for asians were extremely racist times. Not only for asians but for everyone. Things have moved on. I believe there are reasons that rules are in place for immigration.
  18. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    How did you get to that conclusion? To answer your question - no. I am not afraid. Illegal immigration is an issue that I am passionate about probably because I live so close to the problem. People in other states see the benefits of illegals (i.e. the economy) but they NEVER see any of the negative effects. I do.

    Less than you think. I'm sure your thinking somewhere along the lines of: if all the illegals in the US suddenly stopped working than our economy would go to shit. Heres the thing though. They will NEVER stop working. You guys have already pointed out all the shit they go through just to get into this country to work. Their OWN families are on the line. And if they stopped working it would just be a game of chicken which they would end up losing.

    Probably not going to change my mind on the issue. The U.S. government has been pretty lenient towards illegals in the past - thats partly how so many got in in first place. I believe that immigration reform a big topic in our upcoming presidential election. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

    No they couldn't.

    Phoenix wasn't 'locked down'. They marched in the streets of central Phoenix. The area that they occupied was about 1.2% (i'm being generous) of the entire metropoliton area.

    Well - a lot of those marchers were legally allowed to be in the country. I don't know if you ever thought about it - but cops have better things to do on any given day then to go out to some dumb shit rally and ask to see people's social security cards.

    This is a little riduculous of a point. Cops can't 'arrest' that many people no matter WHAT nationality they were.

    I will say one more thing on this - I heard stories that in California and AZ at some High schools latino students had hung a Mexican flag over the US flag and had Old Glory flying upside down. THAT is bullshit. If I saw someone do that I don't know if I could restrain myself from throwing down.

    Again - speeding is a traffic violation. There are punishments THAT FIT THE CRIME. And people DO get punished. When illegals break the law - next to nothing happens to them. There is no deterrent for a Mexican to bypass American laws.

    Why do you keep saying that people are using arguments out of 'fear'? I don't get it.

    On the contrary - people who get caught driving w/out insurance can have their license suspended - which is a big deal. If you get caught on a suspended license you GO TO JAIL. If an illegal gets caught doing the same thing - they might get deported. Big deal.

    And if they get caught - the GO TO JAIL. Your never going to win with this argument. Becuase the fact is the VAST majority of Americans DO pay income taxes and DO have car insurance. Illegals can't pay income taxes. Illegals obviously don't have insurance because if something happens on the road they either A) run away or B) get deported - big deal.

    What have I ignored that I was obviously wrong on? You have to be able to acknowledge the difference of OPINIONS. This IS America remember?

    How is that not a valid point? Your crying because Mexicans have to walk across a desert in order to break American laws. I'm not going to have sympathy for that. I say put landmines out there :P (It was a joke - easy on the flames).

    Are you saying I have less physical fortitude than an Illegal immigrant? Lets see one of those skinny bastards take on a 300lb Defensive tackle for 4 quarters.

    They've won the first battle - only because we didn't even realize we were fighting. But I'm going to put my money on us to make some serious headway in the next couple years.

    :roll: Classic. My points are all ridiculous and at the end of the day my problem is that I'm just a little racist. Right?

    Thats fine. Put your fingers in your ears whenever someone on the other side is talking. But the most effective way to win an argument is to understand the opposing side of it.
  19. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Yes that did happen and it is exactly shit like that which causes problems. You see the chinese fucking doing that? Or the Jews? the Arabs? or anyone else that had to immigrate here in a plane or a boat instead of hopping a fence.

    Its called respecting the law and the country your in.
  20. Shoveler

    Shoveler Still Mildly Glowing

    Nov 8, 2007
    Dark, I never said only hispanics suffer, you continually make this an arguement about who suffers more, they all suffer and I have said so several times. I guess you are the one ignoring what you want. At the rate you are going, you might actually have me start disagreeing with whether or not asians suffer.......because me saying they do obviously isn't sinking in. Overzealous much?

    Prez, now illegals don't pay taxes? LOL, yep they don't buy stuff here at else should I expect from a devoted Rush Limbaugh enthusiast. Limbaugh isn't an authority on anything, and yes I can measure the man without listening to a word he says, why, because his past defines his actions now. He has proven that he can't make rational decisions, and not only in his private.

    If all illegals are deported, this country would fail, it was risen on the backs of slaves at it's founding, and through the industrial revolution was risen again on the backs of immigrants in near slave conditions much of the time. Deportation is a bad joke to make people think something is being done, but makes no difference.

    Is everyone here against easy to obtain work visas for these folks? If you are, then what are the true motives against it?

    EDIT: Prez, I live in San Antonio, Texas dude, you don't think I see the positives and the negatives? Of course I do, I also have to live with the postives and negatives of my fellow Americans, and somehow I still get by.