NCR is actually the best ending, isn't it

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by Atomic Postman, Apr 7, 2020.

  1. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    I've got like 900 hours in Fallout: New Vegas and I've spent so much time discussing and thinking about it, and I've always bounced around factions. Mostly between House and Independent, mind, but I've always had this inkling at the back of my head.

    NCR is actually the best ending, but I don't want to admit it. Before you start typing comments about overextension and civil war, just watch this video:



    Isn't that ending just....really good? Like really nice. Every town and faction seems to get the best outcome, barring Goodsprings but theirs is the second best compared to Independent, and it's not even that bad. The only one I think is better that's possible under NCR is the Vault 19 Powder Gangers joining the Khans.

    But yeah. The Mojave becomes civilized, Freeside becomes a hub of humanitarian aid, the Boomers stop being isolationist and become powerful traders. The Mojave Brotherhood live, but instead of becoming tech-raiders in their other surviving endings, they finally make peace with NCR, are reformed and effectively take the place of the old Nevada Desert Rangers in protecting the roads of the Mojave to ease the NCR's burden, whilst also getting their hands on lots of useful technology.

    Meanwhile Primm, Novac, Jacobstown and the Kings still remain independent to a pretty big extent and live happy lives. The Mojave goes from being one of the most war-torn hellholes in the southwest to one of the most stable, progressive and peaceful areas of the Wasteland. The Courier's only responsibility is their own control of Big MT and they're free to wander as a certifiable legend of the Mojave. The NCR Rangers are distinguished and Hanlon has a happy retirement. California is flush with fresh water, electricity and a revitalized economy from Vegas.

    Sure, it sucks that Hanlon and Kimball are effectively rewarded for being hawkish dumbasses, but I guess the point is that the NCR is a faction mouldable by many cogs that make up its machine, and as long as there are good, motivated people like the Courier, Colonel Hsu, Crocker etc weighing the scales, the Republic can sail in the right direction.

    It's just that I can't get over the appeal of the independent Vegas endings. It's thematically the most appropriate and it feels really good to push both the NCR and the Legion away from the Mojave as a champion of Vegas, and by the minute I find myself flip-flopping between the two. But by comparison Independent Vegas feels so much more...hollow. It doesn't help that some outcomes are missing (What happens to the Brotherhood if they survive in a Wild Card Vegas with an upgraded army? the slide doesn't exist.)

    But even I have to admit, the NCR ending is kind of the nicest one, isn't it.
     
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  2. plasticsoda

    plasticsoda First time out of the vault

    34
    Mar 19, 2020
    The NCR is the faction with the most amount of quests in the game and most of them are about fixing some problem that the people in charge overlook because they are too focused on Hoover Dam and I think that shows the current state of affairs: Everything is broken but somehow it works, but for how long? The NCR might be good on the short term but I think it will eventually destroy itself from within. They just keep pushing for more territory without actually securing or consolidating power within what they already own.


    You also see a lot of nationalism between NCR supporters, nothing better than a war to unite everyone, eh? I wonder what will be the fate of the NCR once there is no almighty foe to challenge them
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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  3. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Simply by virtue of incompetent fucks like Kimball and Oliver, together with a warmonger like Cassandra Moore still staying in charge, while the best of them all like Hanlon retiring from the stage... nope. We could argue which one is the worse compared to the Legion's ending, but the best? Nah.
    The Boomers still ventures out into the wasteland and trades with the wastelanders in House ending, even though he didn't pay much attention to them.
    Meanwhile, for how long will the peace between the BoS and NCR lasts? Not long ago they got some big civil war, culminating in the BoS blasting NCR's gold reserves which plummeted their currency's value. And don't forget if you get Arcade Gannon involved during the Second Battle for Hoover Dam and is on NCR's side, the NCR would put up a bounty on Arcade simply for his ties with the Enclave. And with someone like Moore in charge of the NCR.... not to mention a lot of those in power would still be butthurt with the BoS destroying their gold reserves.

    Primm didn't 'remain' independent under the NCR. They chafe under NCR's taxes as a price for protection and increased traffic. Primm is only truly independent under either Sheriff Meyers or Primm Slim, with the former having some shady stuff going on while with the latter some crooks get away but still prosper.
    Novac also remains independent regardless of your choice of faction, as long as you complete Come Fly With Me by getting Jason Brights and his followers fly away in the rockets, and not sabotaging them.
    Jacobstown also remained independent regardless of your choice of faction, so long as you solve the first quest there in a way that benefit the settlement properly.
    Only the Kings fully benefit from a happy ending as long as you get them setting up a truce, ease up on their tension, AND either letting the NCR take over the Dam or go independent. It's a bit of a catch when going House ending because if you don't escalate the conflict in Freeside, House would see the Kings as being complicit with the NCR.

    Literally what? Unless you meant Oliver, Hanlon is THE best of the NCR! He was the one who carried NCR during the First Battle for Hoover Dam, and if not for General 'Wait and See' Oliver, he would've exterminated the Legion then and there. The only way to get Hanlon to properly stand up against the upper echelon's incompetency and hawkish imperialist way is to not expose him during Return to Sender AND go either House or Independent. That way he get elected as the senator of Redding, and from there I can only imagine good things happening for the NCR for a foreseeable future.

    Once again, this all doesn't matter as long as incompetent higher ups like Kimball and Oliver not only stays in power, but also gets praised for the things they didn't achieve by themselves. And don't forget about the warmonger Cassandra Moore, who even vowed to push back against Crocker if the Courier chose to support his more diplomatic approach to Freeside and the Kings.
     
  4. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    They do so EVENTUALLY and we don't know the extent of their opening up.It's quoted as "ventured", which implies timid exploration and poking around. We do know, however, that they quickly form a healthy trade relationship with the Gun Runners under NCR.

    Firstly, Brotherhood in the West didn't literally blow up gold. The Brotherhood-NCR war caused a lack of faith in NCR government and it had a roll on effect of crashing their gold-backed economy. It's a common misconception.

    Secondly, as the ending itself literally states, in the case of the Mojave Brotherhood they form a long-standing peaceful relationship whilst the western chapters continue to get their asses booted by the Republic. This is further reinforced by Veronica's ending wherein her concerns about the Mojave BoS dying out because of NCR conflict and war is removed due to the peace established at Vegas, leaving her only concern being their long-term survival due to their ascetic way of life. It feels like massive specualtion/pulling out your ass on this end rather than looking towards what the actual endings state.


    This is my point exactly. Primm under Primm Slimm, Jacobstown and Novac remain independent same as the other endings, except in this case they get a Mojave Wasteland that is stable, the highways protected by Paladins of the Brotherhood of Steel and Vegas a hub of NCR caravan enterprise, tourism and resources. Compared to say House or Independent where the Mojave becomes anarchic and violent. I won't disagree with you that Primm being under NCR annexation isn't a good ending, but that's why its great that NCR allows you to wedge a dose of independence for the Mojave.


    C'mon, don't play dumb. In the Independent ending we see that outer Vegas (i.e not the Strip) via the Followers ending becomes even more of a chaotic ghetto, but by comparison to the rest of the Mojave it is actually the most stable. That's why in the Indie Kings ending, the word "Ironically" is used because Freeside has stayed the same if not gotten worse, but it's still better than outside. Not to mention the ending explicitly states that the Kings protect NCR travellers from violent assaults which apparently are pretty frequent in most places of Indie Vegas.

    Meanwhile, in the NCR ending Mormon Fort becomes a massive humanitarian hub and the Kings lead a full relief effort for the people whilst still maintaining independence. That's a hell of a lot better than "Our previous shitty status quo is ironically better by comparison now". I don't even have to mention House's ending where they're either violent street-thugs attacking civillians or they're wiped out to the last by robots for breaking bread.

    I did mean Oliver. Yes, that is the (pretty much only) downside of the NCR ending is that Oliver and Kimball are rewarded for their incompetence instead of punished. My argument here though is that the message of NCR as a faction is that democratic governments are the sum of their parts, not just singular heads. There's a "word of god" developer interview floating somewhere wherein they state the player is meant to understand that the NCR is like a massive ship, and good people like the player do their best to haul and strain to steer it in the right direction, which with effort (as the Courier demonstrates in their time in the Mojave) is entirely possible.

    That is the strength of the NCR ending, as I say, in that it can vary between being a soldier to the administration (wherein the Kings, the Khans and the Brotherhood are wiped out thuggishly) and being someone who carries the flag but has brains and good intentions (Wherein the Mojave becomes one of the best areas in the Wasteland).

    It is the uncertainty of the NCR ending that doesn't make it entirely and cleanly good, but I think compared to the double-edgedness of the other endings, the NCR's one is the most dulled.

    I like Indie as much as the next guy, and I would love to see you make an argument for why it's better, but I just can't see it.
     
  5. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    What are you saying? https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/NCR-Brotherhood_War
    https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Redding
    The endings are talking about short term results and consequences, unless stated otherwise like Old World Blues ending with Blind Diode Jefferson preventing sonic invasion in 2910.
    Even then, I'm not pulling anything out of my ass, because we got all this facts present in-game. Simply extrapolating it from the available data, it's not hard to come up with plausible future scenarios.

    In what part of the endings does the Mojave became violent in House/Independent endings? Anarchic, I get it. But violent? Not to mention the part where the Mojave indeed became anarchic didn't include Goodsprings, Primm, Jacobstown, and Novac.

    Here's the ending for Freeside and the 'good endings' for the Kings when going House/Independent
    Apparently the ending slide with the Followers when winning with House is the exact same as the Independent, or bugged and may not appear altogether. However, I feel like doing all those quests with the Followers did fuck all because they didn't seem to help them in the end, or Obsidian forgot/neglected to take those sidequests completion into consideration. You basically:
    1. Help getting Bill Ronte and Jacob Hoff back in the saddle to maintain the waterpump and procure detox chems
    2. Get Jerry the Punk to join, as another pair of helping hands
    3. Maybe even help set up a truce between the Kings and the NCR's missionaries
    4. Help set up a steady flow of meds and chems supplies from the local merchants, and even donate your own meds and chems!
    And STILL they ended up struggling to provide even the most basic of services?!

    Meanwhile, the matter with the Kings and the NCR is rather complicated. The Kings and the locals has been living in Freeside for a whole longer while, but the NCR occupying the local spaces are basically squatters. On one hand, it was the NCR who first attacked the locals who happened to be Kings' friends, on the other hand Pacer didn't do it right by beating the NCR's representatives. It's an unfortunate circumstances where one isn't wronger than the other. But the way I see it, the NCR has a bunch of lands ready to sustain their own populace back west, so it isn't 'fair' to the locals for them to just come occupying the space in Freeside.

    'pretty much THE only'? Oh man, don't you know how much of a mess just one guy can do when he's given power, and he didn't have what it takes to use it properly? I know what it feels like, in REAL TIME, a guy elected for 2nd period, and he acted like a headless chicken not knowing how to handle things properly, especially now that we have an ongoing pandemic.
    Don't you see how they fared without the Courier in the picture? For 4 years they stretched their own forces so thin across the Mojave, it's like a smooth supple dough ready to be shaped into a thin crust pizza. For 4 years they just sit with their thumbs up their asses, doing nothing but being a sitting duck, an easy picking for the slowly but surely recovering Legion's guerilla warfare and infiltration. When a guy like Hanlon wants to push the advantages, and rightfully so, a man with more power than him ordered him to stop, wait, and see. For 4 years. When a guy like Crocker wants to push for more diplomatic approach with the locals, a warmonger like Cassandra Moore vowed to denounce him, and with how much power Moore has it's not hard to imagine she would actually do as she said.

    And you meant to tell me the goodness of the NCR lies in the good people who can steer the ship, when the ones who actually got a hold of the steer are incompetent hacks like Kimball and Oliver, and a warmonger like Cassandra Moore? While the guy who's truly worth his salt like Hanlon would only really do the right thing after the Courier showed the NCR how is it done when going House/Independent?

    I'm actually more of the guy who thinks that the House Always Wins meself https://www.nma-fallout.com/threads...t-hope-for-the-wasteland-and-humanity.205464/
     
  6. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 7, 2017
    The game gives several reasons why NCR will collapse in the long term like corruption, in-fighting, trying to control too many areas at once, their soldier ranks starting to thin due to the constant strategy of just throwing soldiers until they win and so on. NCR's ending at the absolute best is okay for the Mojave in the short term, but it will most likely collapse in long term.

    Kimball is just one of the many things wrong with NCR in New Vegas. So no, the NCR ending is not the best ending for New Vegas, not by a long shot.
     
  7. Eshanas

    Eshanas A Smooth-Skin

    664
    Jul 6, 2016
    The best thing for the Mojave is either House or a strong good Ind Mojave; the NCR is alright for now but will either fall back or stretch itself to death later.

    I wish a Ind Vegas had a questline where you wrangle up mayors and town councils to hammer out a contigency and form a psuedo congress down the road; with the courier providing the army/police forces to make the region safe and stop internal bickering with a sheriff panel or something like that. Would had put a lot more clout into the ind Vegas ending and allowed for players to double back, have a second layer of quests to deal with, and either befriend or replace mayors/sheriffs. Hell even Nipton could had had a few quests regarding resettlement.

    Alas....
     
  8. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    I disagree with this interpretation of the ending slides. They aren't massively long term, but to imply that they're somehow only immediate/short-term to me seems wrong, and makes them a bit pointless as endings, does it not?



    The part where there's no government or protection of the roads. You can argue that in House's ending he sends out Securitrons to places like Primm (in certain endings) and Goodsprings (in all House endings) to collect protection money (GASP! TAXES!!!) so there's some monitoring, but explicitly part of the deal of the independent Vegas endings is that the Mojave outside of Vegas is laissez-faire. Which, as the Followers find (and I generally trust their viewpoint pretty strongly) is even more unstable and violent than before.



    Here's my point though, the NCR is unlike House or the Legion in that it is designed to outlast its current leaders. Yes, Kimball's administration is poor and it's absolutely the negative/detractor aspect of the NCR ending, even shit like the NCR's corruption is as of the game guide's canon due to rollbacks on laws by Kimball to loosen corporate/ranch restrictions that Tandi put in place. Yet, the United States throughout its history in real life has suffered through terrible, incompetent administrations and has made it through the other side just fine, with the passage of time giving way to some of the nation's best after those shitty ones. That is my point. Yes, NCR ending enables Kimball for the time being but the NCR doesn't live or die with Kimball and Oliver, it's a democratic republic with dozens of cogs making up the machine and in the future it's equally as fair that the NCR recieves Tandi 2.0. or better.

    I also reject the assertion pretty flatly that the NCR is somehow this Somalia tier failed state on the verge of collapse. The game provides indication to the idea that the NCR isn't a perfect good-guy democracy by showing it experiencing strain for the first time in its history, but it's testament to the fact it doesn't collapse and there is quite literally never a mention of civil war (Between who? Lol) that keeps being brought up. Testament to this is the fact that there are other endings where you can completely fuck NCR up the ass and yet there's not even a morsel of implication that the NCR will collapse or fail as a state as a result. It's like claiming that America was bound to fail as a state based on their position in Vietnam in 1974. The only time this is the case is literally when you surgically rip apart the country with nuclear ICBMS, which even then you're told it will take decades to take effect. I don't know man, for a post-apocalyptic society that's pretty good resilience compared to doming some bald cunt in a fur collar and letting the tribals eat eachother or detonating an EMP pulse bomb on the Strip and bringing the entire police-state to an end.

    Personally, I think Independent is best next to NCR simply for the fact that I (weirdly enough) trust Ulysses in that the communities of the Mojave can form a new nation like the Divide was going to do. I also agree with you in that I think the Yes Man ending was missing a fair bit of content, as you say the Followers ending should be tweaked by you establishing the local-self suffciency and we really needed to do something interesting with the Brotherhood of Steel. But that's why I now am sliding over to preferring NCR, because the endings are much more comprehensive and far less hollow.
     
  9. KingArthur

    KingArthur My Name Is Actually Arthur

    Jun 25, 2018
    Is the NCR ending the most “positive”? Yes. Will the NCR collapse? Yes. Every faction in NV inevitably will fall victim to the faults of their predecessors pre-war. The only exception is the Indie ending and the embracing of chaos.
     
  10. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    I think we can agree to that. Though, I'm not sure it's a certainty the NCR will collapse.
     
  11. FDO

    FDO Still Mildly Glowing

    226
    Jul 4, 2018
    I always thought this kind of 'endings' are for the most part pointless. It's only a cheap fast way to describe supposed consequences rather than showing the world react and change during the game itself.
    I know NV was rush, I don't say that to blame the devs. But it's why I personally don't take much of what the slides say seriously, even on short term.

    And on a related note, hearing some of them defining your character motivations or future is definitely not a good thing. The courrier became Vegas leader\mr House chief enforcer\insert other courrier endings here? Hell no, not my courrier anyway. The chosen one became elder of Arroyo? Hell no, not my chosen one anyway.
     
  12. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    Eh, I disagree. That's why I think they're long-term. I also think you'd have to have a game with insane budget to truly see the concequences of your actions, either that or you fold the story wherein the faction endings actually aren't all that different. It also allows you to look years into the future beyond what the game would allow you to experience. Again, why I interpret them as being long-term projections for how those communities go. They're a nice wrap up to the story, IMO. In fact, I think Vegas's crime in that department is not fleshing out those ending slides or having more of them (Independent is criminally underbaked in that department)
     
  13. FDO

    FDO Still Mildly Glowing

    226
    Jul 4, 2018
    What I believe is that RPG games, or games with multi paths\choices, should lose the concept of 'huge world with plenty of disconnected side quests and 'go where you want' sad phenomenon. I am no expert since Fallout 1\2\NV about sum up my experience with open world games, and the witcher 3 which was pretty much murdered by it in my mind.

    I don't feel like going over every endings or consequences in a Fallout game so let's try one example with New reno in F2.
    In one possible slide, a gang war supposetly take place between the families. How about having it taking place in game, affter the right events, time passed, insert other possible triggers here.

    It doens't need to be a thing that double Reno's size in term of programming, it's up to the creator to think of how to set it without burying him\herself under the mass of work. To do that, the concept above of 'let's make a huge world first, then fill it as much as we can next, and last let's fill the main paths\quests\story', need to go.
    First the main paths and stories, then the sides content, and finally, maybe, make the world a little bigger, but just maybe.

    I am no dev, but that's how I think with my modding hobby, because that's the kind of game I would prefer to play, and even make if I were a professional. To me, it seem obvious that the open world concept mostly created bad or\and bland games, and crippled the few good games it was putted into. In fact, Fallout 1 is the only open world which did it without feeling lesser for it, that I know anyway.
     
  14. Malpais Dominus

    Malpais Dominus First time out of the vault

    43
    Jun 1, 2020
    I think the biggest problem with this is that all of these positive outcomes are because of the Courier's direct intervention. It says a lot that in order for the NCR to not completely bungle the entire annexation of the Mojave/Legion War they have to have a deus ex machina main character come and fix all their problems for them. Something that they won't always have.

    The NCR as others have stated is so spread thin and suffering from serial incompetence at all levels that they can't even take care of a few low tier convicts in Primm, put a transparent huckster in charge of the research at Helios One, have a general who caused the NCR to miss out of a decisive victory by being indecisive et cetera. Once you get rid of a benevolent Courier who is there to baby sit them every step of the way the systemic problems with the NCR will creep back to the forefront. Even if the Courier became an immortal boy scout he can't be everywhere at once.

    It's undeniable that the short term benefits are immense for the Mojave but as the generations pass and entropy sets in they're going to be in a very bad spot because not only will the Courier not be there, they won't have learned their lesson. Really a pro-NCR Courier who goes around picking up after them with a pat on the back and a "there there" is bad because it doesn't force them to address any of the issues with their system itself. It would rather serve to cause further complacency and stagnation. The Legion has taken advantage of this fact to repeatedly whip the NCR from what should be imo a position of relative weakness.

    If I could posit a hypothetical scenario imagine the NCR does win. The Courier comes out of nowhere to save them, fixes up Helios, trains their lackluster troops, assassinates Caesar, wipes out Cottonwood Cove, kills Lanius, and all the other random acts of kindness to win them the war. And then the Courier goes off into the sunset for one reason or another. They now have a massive eastern frontier filled with random packs of raiders and tribals whose only unifying factor is that they all used to be a part of the Legion's mortal enemy. I think this would make Vietnam look like Austerlitz. The immense guerrilla war campaign would be monstrous. The Legion was cold and calculating with it's brutality, now you'd be dealing with revanchist remnants and cannibal hordes who might not hail Caesar anymore but they haven't forgotten the tactics he taught them. Not only do you have this logistical nightmare but let's say to make things worse they find their new regional power to rub up against. The Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel from Tactics are alive and well. Not only are there friction from neighboring each other, the Midwest BoS probably aren't going to roll out the red carpet when they learn what's become of their cousins on the West Coast.

    This is going off into pure speculation territory but the point is the Legion is not the last external existential crisis the NCR would probably face. Even if they manage to prop up their increasingly corrupt and oligarchic government at home they're going to be in even bigger trouble if they took their chance to learn from their failures and instead got a get out of jail free card. All it would really take is a force that could bridge/be on top the tech/manpower gap and had the Legion's ability to exploit the (still undressed) NCR's weaknesses. The combination of being led by a cabal of corrupt warhawks and utterly humiliating losses finally putting a stop to their expansion would more than likely cause the whole rotting structure to cave in imo.

    A big part of the story in these games is humanity crawling it's way back from the brink of destruction and being given a second chance despite their mistakes. One of the most important things is making sure to not repeat the mistakes of the past and with the path the NCR is on they're pretty much dead set on repeating what led to the world getting lit up by nuclear fire. The NCR is pretty much all about choosing short term stability and comfort (sure things will be fine now but eventually we're going to find ourselves referring to the NCR like we do Pre-War America) over ensuring the long term stability and survival of the species by looking at what we did and learning to not do that again. Which is pretty much Caesar's argument and agree or disagree with his actions to avoid that scenario I think is a correct assessment of the situation.
     
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  15. Eshanas

    Eshanas A Smooth-Skin

    664
    Jul 6, 2016
    An NCR Courier basically has to try to become a NCR president, and the problem with that is that the courier's only real ties to the NCR are a bunch of career officers. That's not very stable to just jump into the NCR's governance... It could be done, but either way, it's going to be a hell of a ride for the NCR, which has basically went the wrong way. Sure they got Lake Mead out of it - but that's going to what, go back into the Brahmin? They need greener pastures. Literally.
     
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  16. Sebtheman

    Sebtheman Ain't that a kick in the head!

    2
    Jan 20, 2020
    Throwing in mods will make your question a lot harder :)
     
  17. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    My man, you couldn't have put it in better way. Maybe you can, but this is as good as it can get for now.

    Indeed, NCR wouldn't grow unless *we* show them how it's done. The only way to do it is to go either House/Independent, make them see Kimball and Oliver for what they really are (incompetent hacks), and trigger Hanlon enough to make him actually participate actively in NCR's actual seat of power to make an actual difference, instead of just pointlessly making the NCR running around in panic on micro level with false threats and alarms.
     
  18. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Vault Fossil

    Mar 16, 2013
    I'd say this is an unfair argument as basically all of the factions would be in a worse quagmire than they begin the game with post-2nd battle of Hoover Dam if not for the Courier. House would be entombed within Lucky 38 and hold a fraction of his power (You can argue that somebody else could do the Courier's work, but then you can literally argue the same for NCR).

    It's true however that NCR as a faction is meant to characterize the "sum of its parts" aspect of democracy in that with the right cogs and gears (People like the Courier, The Chosen One, Tandi, Colonel Hsu, Ambassador Crocker, Ranger Hanlon etc), the machine moves brilliantly but with the wrong ones in the wrong places, the machine loses effectiveness and ends up malfunctioning (Kimball, Oliver, Moore).I'd say that is overall preferable to living and dying on the whims and existence of a single leader ala Caesar or House, but it is certainly somewhat of a double-edged sword.

    This is true. As I said I acknowledge that the dark part of the NCR ending is rewarding the bad cogs in the machine just because you managed to pull a jury-rigged fix on the whole operation. Rather than Independent where those cogs get assuredly thrown out and there's hope for better, and different, administration. The thing is I guess is that I care more about the Mojave than NCR, and the NCR ending seems to benefit the Mojave itself a whole lot more. Even if the NCR itself strains and collapses in some dark future, the Mojave has enough of a strong foothold as one of the Wasteland's most profitable, resource rich and well-protected regions of humanitarian aid that it'd probably still end up better in a post-NCR collapse anarchy than the post-Hoover Dam anarchy of Yes Man or the uncaring tyranny of House.


    I find this argument troublesome and it's repeatedly a worrying amount. The implication seems to be that the theme of New Vegas or Fallout as a whole is somehow that democracy has failed (despite the fact that totalitarian dictatorship was the other dancing partner of the nuclear tango) when no, the entire point is "War Never Changes" the NCR is no more destined to fall to the bloody failings of the past as literally anyone else. It's why the final slide of the ending remains the same regardless of your choice. You can apply the "repeating failures" label to all of the main choices barring Yes Man.
     
  19. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Neither House nor Legion has corrupt officials holding all the powers. In case of House, you forgot that he gave great incentive for the Courier to continue working for him in the future, as he even put it during the last dialogue lines:
    See how he even take the Courier by hand and return to Vegas together. Meanwhile, what does the NCR has to offer for what Courier has done? Some thanks, and that's it.

    Caesar is at the very least a competent leader despite relying on maintaining a lie, and has a plethora of sufficient subordinates and competent retainers. I'll leave it to the Legion supporter to stand their ground here.
    Meanwhile, by default House stated that his rule would turn to be an autocracy, where he has no interest in abusing others, and no interest in legislating nor otherwise dictating what people do in their private time. And approaching the realm of head canon, we've had discussion that a House ending with a Good Karma Courier would become a dual dictatorship, where House runs all the algorithms while also providing security and tech, with the Courier acting as the brawn, limbs, and mediator between House and the rest of the Mojave/world. Like we see in-game, House would give the Courier a task, how the task is accomplished all according to the best of the Courier's ability.

    Either one or the other are absolutely much, much more preferable to NCR's condition with all the right pieces in the wrong places and the wrong pieces in the right places, doomed to a slow, stagnating decadence and complacency where a bunch of Brahmin barons held sway to the Ruling Council's decisions. Did you forget that Hanlon retires in the NCR ending? And that Moore denounced Crocker's diplomatic approach during the campaign? What makes you think they'll be able to make any difference then, when all the bad guys are hailed as heroes?

    And no thanks to the NCR themselves, you'll need the Followers for that. Left to their own devices, the NCR would never think twice to reconcile with them, you'll need the Courier for that.

    Can we please end this meme that House is a tyrant? Uncaring, alright, but a tyrant? Sending a single Securitron who do nothing but reporting on the Goodsprings barely count as a tyranny, not to mention if it's Victor I doubt the residents are actually THAT uncomfortable. Primm was imposed with heavy taxes only if you let the NCR annex them, and the Kings are wiped out if you let them reconcile with the NCR. The Boomers are left alone, allowing them to mingle and interact with the wastelanders without restraint, and the only place where House holds absolute power is the tiny little Strip in the middle of big Mojave, where is the tyranny in there?

    You say all that, but you forgot Brahmin barons literally holding sway over the Ruling Council's decisions and policies. No, this doesn't mean I actually think democracy failed completely in context of New Vegas setting, only that the way NCR is now it doesn't matter, democracy or not. They need to get spanked in the ass and shown how it's done.
     
  20. Malpais Dominus

    Malpais Dominus First time out of the vault

    43
    Jun 1, 2020
    I disagree with this. Mr. House has pretty meticulously planned his moves after acquiring the chip for a very long time. With the NCR and Legion weakened from duking it out over the dam House with his army of (possibly upgraded) securitrons would pretty easily force out either faction. House I think is the faction that revolves the least around the Courier imo. He might get lucky in the game with the one perfect "employee" who can do everything but even without the Courier there's plenty of freelancers to accomplish the various tasks he ends up giving to the Courier. The NCR doesn't have the benefit of such a meritocratic and direct system. A merc who fails can easily be replaced with someone else, the same cannot be said for people like Moore or Oliver.

    Caesar has a pretty good chance of winning a decisive victory as well. Without the Courier he has a few more problems like getting the door under the Fort open to stop House from unleashing his slumbering army and forming alliances with/wiping out some of the factions in the Mojave. However none of these are things that are major setbacks in his war. He has the highly trained manpower who live to die for Caesar, motivated military officers who would charge to their deaths before surrendering and no corrupt bureaucracy to second guess his decisions. I will say Caesar doesn't have a perfect guarantee of forming a lasting, stable society because (and this a major gripe I have with New Vegas and feels like poor writing to me) he has no designated heir and has built up an inner circle of wild blood templars who care more about fighting than statecraft or learned but aging warriors in a society that views beating your commander to death to take his place as legitimate. But that's a whole different discussion.

    This view has some merit when referring to the Legion post-Caeasr because you never know what could happen down the line as again we have no real information on succession (again pretty big, glaring flaw for a faction whose leader gives you a monologue about doing everything in his power to maintain stability) but speaking purely within the events of NV and the immediate aftermath I don't think this is a very fair statement. Neither Mr. House nor Caesar/Lucius/Vulpes or even Lanius have been shown to be arbitrary rulers. The Legion may engage in extreme acts of brutality but never without a reason. It may not be a fun or ideal situation but Legion won't just drag a law abiding citizen into the street and beat them to death like a gang of chem addicted fiends. Definitely not worse than dying due to the apathy/incompetency of a corrupt, uncaring bureaucracy.

    I don't think that latching itself to a sinking ship would be better for the Mojave than if they had just remained independent in such a scenario. Between pretty heavy taxation if we go on what happens to Primm and Goodsprings and now introducing that toxic bureaucracy into the Mojave, I would only see them as having less resources and now suffering from the turmoil of a government that not only doesn't and has never represented them but forced themselves and all their issues onto them. It's choosing between having to suffer the aftershocks of whatever tragedy befalls the NCR or not. In my opinion not having to deal with the NCR's issues is the better outcome.

    The Yes Man ending is kind of fruitless to comment on in my opinion. It really is the wild card ending in every way and it's consequences are left largely up to the imagination of the player who chooses it. It's the "I don't like any of the other factions I'm going to go my own way" decision so what exactly that entails depends on you/your Courier's designs for the Mojave.

    As for House I wouldn't necessarily call him uncaring, just isolated and uninterested in policing people's personal lives as someone like Caesar might. He still has large reaching plans that would benefit everyone like rebuilding infrastructure, providing security with his securitrons and even idealistic plans for space travel. He's anything but uncaring, he's a passionate visionary. Even if he is uncaring and levies taxes he's intelligent, has a specific plan and free reign to take decisive actions whenever and where ever a problems erupts which is a big leg up compared to what the incompetent and bureaucratic nightmare the NCR has to offer when dealing with problems.

    I disagree, the argument has less to do about democracy as a whole but more with what form the democracy has taken. The NCR has turned into a corrupt oligarchy that's controlled more or less by a small cabal of special interests groups and incompetent warhawks who don't truly represent the interests of the people they rule over. There's obviously satire of and references to irl topics but taken purely within the world of Fallout the NCR is pretty perfectly mirroring pre-war America when the bombs fell. Controlled by a literal shadow government and making massive land grabs left and right while jingoistically sharpening it's bayonets on the Chinese's door step without even a passing thought to diplomacy. I don't know much of anything about pre-war China, they've always been kind of an underdeveloped generic "enemy" for the US to be against imo.

    I think we'd just have to agree to disagree on this. The inevitability of conflict among humans is definitely a theme but there is a focus on trying to rebuild and rethink how we as a species got ourselves into the current situation we're in. I think Avellone might agree with the very nihilistic "humanity is doomed to repeat all of it's failures and the only possible outcome is to nuke us back to the stone age every once and a while" ala Lonesome Road but I inherently disagree with this view of Fallout. I can't say it's a completely illegitimate way of thinking but it's not what I take from Fallout personally.

    I think they all have their flaws but the NCR is the one that is turning out to be a carbon copy of the society that did result in America being ravaged by nuclear war. Caeasr I think is slightly better but is still building a society that mirrors one from Human history and hasn't addressed some of the biggest problems of monarchist/dictatorial societies. Mr. House has potential since he doesn't need to worry about succession or disloyalty in his army but I think you are correct when it comes to judging him as a ruler. He's a little too swept up in his own greater vision and is largely disinterested in the micro aspect of rule. I think it would be far better than the NCR who views citizens as a resource for taxes or the army and then wastes those resources on corruption and military blunders. Not only is he pretty disconnected from the rest of humanity by being a stationary computer but he's an outsider in time as well with no real understanding of what it's like out there in the wasteland. He's utterly disconnected from the people he would be ruling over and would be pretty incapable of representing them.

    This is why I prefer the Yes Man ending but it's kind of a cop out because like I said it's a total fantasy head canon scenario as to what happens afterwards. Your Courier could be an immortal cyborg philosopher King or just some prick with a chip on his shoulder who wants to burn it all down and walk away.
     
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