Should Britain Leave the EU?

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Radman, May 13, 2013.

  1. Radman

    Radman It Wandered In From the Wastes

    192
    Jul 12, 2007
    Well the debate is raging ever onwards over Britains continued membership with the EU.

    The political party who's advocated the UK leaving the Common Market has gained numerous seats across counties and councils across the country.

    I was wondering what NMA'ers take on the issue was, my personal opinion is we, as a country need to have a good honest look at what we want and sensibly debate the facts, sum up the pros and cons of any decision.

    What annoys me about the whole situation is the pro-EU members in Westminster wish to deny the UK people a referendum on the issue or even debate it sensibly - it smacks of an anti-democratic agenda.

    Now i'm neither for nor against the EU, I just wish to have a sensible debate on the issue followed with a referendum.
     
  2. Gaspard

    Gaspard Kasparov

    833
    May 7, 2009
    as an outsider I do not know the details there - probably it could be done better, but imagine now that every major decision went though a referendum. there shouldn't be any jumping into and out of international alliances like the EU - it would defy the whole point in the first place.

    I've followed some of the debates on the subject and so far I can't see how UK can leave EU without blockading itself in a bad way
     
  3. Radman

    Radman It Wandered In From the Wastes

    192
    Jul 12, 2007
    The problem with the EU issue in the UK is its becoming more then a common market, it is becoming more of a single federal state - democracy being centralised and removed from member nations.

    In my opinion there should be a sensible debate within the UK and a referendum take place as to our future membership because simply put the EU isnt what we joined - our membership should be put to the people simply because its such an important decision for the country.

    I dont know, the EU isnt going to suddenly stop trading with the UK however the EU does limit trading internationally on its members.
     
  4. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Carbon Dated and Proud

    Feb 23, 2006
    Doesn't sound like you've put too much thought into the subject if you can't form an opinion on whether it's a good idea or not.
     
  5. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003
    I wouldn't care if I didn't import most of my movies and comic books from the UK. It's so convenient and I don't have to bother with customs and additional fees.
     
  6. SimpleMinded

    SimpleMinded Vault Fossil

    Jun 17, 2003

    I'm not sure what it's like in the UK, but do you really trust the average person to pay attention to the debate, not the facts, and then vote in the referendum in a way that best helps the UK?

    I know in the US I wouldn't much trust anyone to even listen to the facts, and those who did probably wouldn't bother voting.
     
  7. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    How, exactly? Last I heard, MPs are elected directly by the citizens of their member states. Furthermore, national governments do exist and will continue to exist.

    It's funny how Federal Europe is used as a boogeyman by various people for their own ends, ignoring the fact that it would be, by the virtue of its roots, a democratic institution. Unless you consider eg. the Federal Republic of Germany, Swiss Confederacy or the United States of America fundamentally undemocratic.
     
  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    But the European union is still not really as effective or useful like it should be.

    don't get me wrong. I feel very Pro-Euro. And I really think the simple idea of the European union is awesome. But its clear that many of the things they do there is somewhat whack. Even more then usual. I mean standards for cucumbers? Thank god that law disappeared. I mean stupid stuff happens everywhere. But the kind of incompetence you experience in Brussels sometimes is staggering.

    The whole crisis around the Euro goes back to the idea that all the nations would be "equal" in their efficiency and economy. A pipe dream. And already back then, when they they thought about the Euro it was clear that nations like Spain, Italy, Greece and a few more would have serious trouble with it. The European "government" (for the lack of other words) actually doesn't even work like the separation of powers in the nations it actually wants to "govern". On the level of its "European" citizens, there is not enough transparency, and it is still a question how european parties would actually work. The turnout in political decisions is really not very high, which is pretty sad when you think about. There are also many institutions missing be it for the finances or the law enforcement. And the ones we have, have pretty much no real power, they discuss those issues right now, and we might even see one day a form of ministries of finance that might be responsible for all the European states. But I would not expect that to happen tomorrow.

    Why is this all so sad though? Because when I am looking at the politicians we have now, then I fear those people will drive Europe agains the wall. For many the European idea becomes more and more unpopular. At the moment it feels like Europe is half-assed. It will be the new challenge of this generation and century, to actually decide if we want one united Europe that is working rather like one nation, of if we actually want to keep it with a very high sovereignty for the individual states.
     
  9. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Admin

    May 27, 2004
    If you only wanted a common market, you should've only joined the Schengen agreement if you only wanted the common market...


    As for the EU itself, I don't mind to much. I'm more frustrated at how unefficient and undemocratic it can be.
    I also think it should be more like a republic, with given rights & freedoms that it protects.
     
  10. Mikey

    Mikey Half-way Through My Half-life
    Orderite

    Aug 2, 2004
    A large part of the issue is that a considerable proportion of the populace weren't alive when our membership of anything was put to a referendum, and many who were feel that what the EU is now is not what they signed up for then. (Not saying this is unique to Britain, of course, but that's the topic at hand.)

    Talk of making the EU more efficient and more like a republic will generally get people more worried over here, I think - I don't think that even pro-Europeans want to simply become an incorporated state in a super-republic. At the moment everyone is wetting themselves over immigration and benefit tourism rather than the economy, but I think it's fair to say that they are issues that require definite consideration.

    As for the democratic/undemocratic - of course the EU is fundamentally democratic, but naturally the proportional number of British MEPs being smaller than, say, 100% of MPs in Westminster being British means what happens is more removed from the will of the British people. An obvious thing to say, clearly, but still a truth.

    No I do not vote UKIP.
     
  11. Earth

    Earth Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 7, 2013
    I feel the codified Human Rights Act and European Courts keep the British government in line. I don't want the country ending up like the US, with the government basically ignoring it's own Bill of Rights. Yes this leads to problems like that Qatada bloke but that's a price to pay for people's protection.

    I'm not a big fan of the EU, but as a crazy idealist cosmopolitan I feel it's a step in the right direction (the euro was still a terrible idea (right now anyway) though :P )
     
  12. Radman

    Radman It Wandered In From the Wastes

    192
    Jul 12, 2007
    It's very complicated issue here in the UK, most of the Euro-Sceptics within the UK are calling for a debate on the issue yet the Euro supporters stand in the way telling us everything is fine and that there really is no need for a debate.

    The problem we have is most of the British public (myself included) dont truly know whether leaving the EU would be a viable option, most Brits dont like the idea of a federal europe (I dont) but we also arent thick and realise that leaving the EU could potentially be very damaging to the UK economically.

    However the EU Sceptics are stating we could stand on our own two feet - but how far can you trust them?

    There has been no debate, there is no real non-biased answer, what most of us Brits want is for the government to present the facts to us calmly and honestly.

    This however simply isnt happening.

    When we joined the Common Market thats exactly what it was, the people of the UK never had a choice over the slow creep into the federal state we're seeing now.

    The EU has become more then just a trade pact.
     
  13. .Pixote.

    .Pixote. Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder

    Sep 14, 2009
    Britain's in the EU? What was the reason behind joining in the first place?
     
  14. Matthews

    Matthews It Wandered In From the Wastes

    193
    Aug 29, 2012
    Fully agreed. I personally like the EU as an idea, but it is at times a badly executed such. Especially the currency crap with euros, which is going downhill when the local goes up (at least SEK does). And the adaption to EU regulations? "Bananas has to be of this size to fit into our regulations, cucumbers of this size and strawberries of another".

    I mean, WTH? Variations will always occur locally, there cannot be regulations on everything to determine what food is good enough for EU citizens or we'd all starve since much food would be discarded because it doesn't fit their ideals. Foolishness, I tell you.
     
  15. Alphadrop

    Alphadrop A right proper chap.

    Aug 21, 2008
    Either to snag those tasty trading deals that made us lots of money or to piss of the French who refused us entry for decades.
     
  16. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    One thing that always bothered me: If the UK was part of the EU why do they keep using their pound and everyone else has to use the Euro?
     
  17. Earth

    Earth Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 7, 2013
    It would help if the Euro-sceptics weren't a group of clowns. Like I said, I don't care much for the EU, but when it's a bunch of homophobic Tories and UKIP arguing against the EU you know no one's ever going to take that side of the argument seriously.

     
  18. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    It's a separate vote I think. Sweden also uses the Krona (SEK).
     
  19. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    What are the arguments in favour of leaving the EU, apart from the usual ''it's inefficient right now''? Anything unique to the UK I mean.
     
  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    they don't have any land based connection with Europe >_>