Th4if no more.

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by generalissimofurioso, Mar 5, 2013.

  1. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    I guess they made Thief for kindergarten student.
    but I think even kindergarten student can learn Thief 1 without reboot.

    actually it's problem for all watered down franchise.
    even kindergarten student can learn how to play oldschool games but developer or publisher think that player can't learn difficult things by him or herself.
  2. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    It's weird, the same guys made Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and that game was rightly praised as a worthy entry to the franchise (I personally hold it just under Deus Ex 1, praise indeed). Whereas even IGN was underwhelmed at those Thief gameplay previews and it seems widely decried as linear and simplified (among other things).

    And it still baffles me that, after the successes of Dishonored and Human Revolution, devs/publishers still thing taking off choices is a good idea. I mean, OK, a few years ago that line of thought might have been slightly less ass-backwards, but nowadays you have many examples of challenging/deep gameplays being very successfull, especially in the indie scene. If a game like Dark Souls can sell well, where's the argument that hard/complex titles cannot sell? It's just one example but it's a striking one.
  3. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Maybe they weren't able to code jumping into the game, like Bethesda is unable to teach their ai to use ladders.
  4. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Human Revolution began development in 2007, the industry has changed A LOT since then. Square Enix (which has been a mess of a company during this generation) bought Eidos when the game was already far in development, so I guess they couldn't/didn't influence it that much.
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I am curious if Dues Ex HR was actually a success for the developer and publisher. Sounds crazy? No, not really. Of course Deus Ex HR was awesome, if not perfect. But the question is, was it profitable for the studio. There are quite a few games that have been a true masterpiece but they didnt really sold enough units, even if that sounds crazy.

    It was someone at Bethesda I think that said a game for them has to sell at least 3 milion units just to be profitable, as far as the production costs goes.

    Maybe De HR, after all, simply was not financially a succes, or simply not earning enough. And then its not a surprise that they move away from it, to more watered down and simpler solutions, which are much easier to do and eventually sell more units in the end. Bethesda is working very succesfully with that formula. They are the Mc Donalds of gaming.
  6. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    I think the better solution would be a better distribution of smaller budgets. Way too much goes to cinematics and advertisement instead othe actual game developing.
  7. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    IIRC some devs have gone on record saying it actually is a financial success, on a French site so I can't really link it. Plus, they wouldn't be releasing the Director's Cut on all platforms if the original didn't sell.

    Furthermore, Bethesda has definitely said Dishonored was a smash hit. They didn't put a lot of money on it, but thanks to good design and word of mouth it sold enough to makes lots of profits. So if Square Enix/Eidos Montréal really think that watering down Thief (and having lukewarm previews even on hype-focused sites as a result) will bring on more $, they got another thing coming. This mentality really needs to go.

    I mean, even Bioware got it. After failing to market Dragon Age 2 to people who just aren't interested in RPGs at all, they're now doubling back and building Inquisition on Origin's roots, you know, the game that actually defined the franchise. It looks fucking promising, and the fandom is much more happy about it than they were at any time during DA2's production. Save for some misplaced marketing statements, Dark Souls 2 seems to build up from the first one and it got a hype train going. Ubisoft went back to the stealth roots of Splinter Cell and created a much better game than the last 2, with more sales looks like. After seeing a XCOM shooter wasn't exactly having anyone dancing in excitement, 2K games simply made a good turn-based game and got rewarded with decent sales. So on and so forth. It seems some studios understand that filling their niche is a good thing, while others simply want to hit as many bullet points on the shallow feature list as humanly possible. And while it may work for some established franchises (hello Assassin's Creed), for the majority of others it simply doesn't. And it seems so obvious to me, but stuff like Tomb Raider, RE6 and now Theif really show some parts of the industry still has its head up its ass.

    EDIT: In fact, Human Revolution sold at least 2 million copies in the first weeks, so the final result is likely around 3-4 which is very respectable. Plus, Eidos Montréal has basically doubled in size since then, and has just been granted funds by Québec's government. So it's safe to say HR was a financial success, so there's just no reason to dumb down their next game.
  8. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    A different team may be working on it, though. Remember, Ion Storm gave us Deus Ex and Daikatana.
  9. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    They already showed that even when we didn't see any footage/images of Human Revolution. There was a tour and they said "Our other team is working on this." "The Dark Project." or. . Thi-four-f.
  10. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    It had a troubled development (4 years instead of the "usual" 2-2.5) so yeah, it's possible that despite the successful sales it didn't bring a lot of money. But even if that's the case that would be because of the troubled development, not because it didn't sell enough. A sequel wouldn't have a similar problem.

    3 millions to be profitable or 3 millions to be worth the bother? Some (a lot) of publishers don't care about simply being profitable, they want to make tons of money with every game otherwise it's not worth it in their eyes (see EA with "Dead Space needs 5 millions to survive").
  11. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Human Revolution was enough of a success to justify a sequel/spin off of some sort.
  12. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    At the risk of repeating myself, I doubt they would have increased the studio's size if the game didn't turn a decent enough profit, much less re-release it. It might very well be Theif is made by another team, however. I've heard they're making a sequel to Human Revolution, so it's possible they have 2 teams.

    Also yes, DS3 is another example of the stupid design policy of many publishers.

    And good point, Tagaziel. Albeit that was an issue of lead designer more than anything it seems; Warren Specter is not John Romero.
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    well such huge companies have the tendency to fuck things up. Yeah, just like most of you said. It really depends on the team and who is working on the projects. Fallout is the best example after all, if you consider how they managed to move from F1/2 to PoS ... for some people, as shocking as it sounds, making games is just a job which they might not even really enjoy that much - understandable in some way ... hard work, bad payment, and if things dont go well people always hate you. For ever. Even if all you did was just typing code like a mad monkey.

    If a guy in a suit who's paying your salaries tells you "do this" even if you know its "shit" ... then well, what other option do you have here? Happens all the time for graphic designers. You learn so much creativity in school, just to end up delivering mediocre garbage 70-80% of the time. Good thing is, it usually doesnt take much time to do it.

    That sounds pretty awesome, on the first glance. But I am bit woried though about this "Deus Ex Universe" thing. Why? Well the idea to have this ongoing world sounds pretty interesting and it could be really awesome if done well, but they want to cover all kind of future Deus Ex games which includes media such as tablets, smartphones, books, graphic novels. This in particular worries me a little bit, because as far as they say " deliver a deep conspiracy that will span several connected Deus Ex games, creating a more immersive and richer experience than ever before.". If done wrong this sounds like, if you want to have the full experience, like understanding all parts of the world/story/NPCs etc. ... then you have to buy the other content. Can you say Prothean DLC? Yeah ... in my opinion one of the worst things they ever did with Mass Effect. I mean it was pretty obvious that they cut that one out to sell it to the people, and this part where they say it wasnt important to the plot? Fuck that. Protheans and the stuff around them was probably one of the most interesting parts of the game since its so important to the lore and the reapers and all that shit and then they make it a DLC where you get the chance to recruit the last surviving Prothean? Fuck you Bioware (or EA or who ever was responsible for that). Seriously Fuck you.

    I mean I dont have a problem with DLCs, not even if they have their own story like the one for Deus Ex Revolutions. But if you have the huge feeling like youre missing something by not buying it ... then its going in the wrong direction. Splitting up games if not done well ... isnt that great in my opinion. It simply doesnt work as well with gaming as it does with movies and TV shows, like Game of Thrones or The Walking dead.
  14. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Wouldn't be so sure of that. Capcom's Dragon's Dogma was one of their most expensive project ever, sold "only" 1.3 millions and yet it got a fullblown retail expansion that included the original game (Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen).
    Square Enix's FF13 is one of the most divisive VGs released in this generation, the sequel sold even less and yet FF13-3 will be launched next month.

    Sometimes people in charge are just stubborn (doesn't imply that DE:HR didn't turn a profit, of course).

    It is.
  15. Hellion

    Hellion Antediluvian Lurker

    Jun 20, 2003

    For some reason, some of the developers' quotes remind me of Bethesda quotes when debating on their future Fallout 3 after having acquired the license.
  16. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    Oooh.......shit x 100....
    I think they should make expension of dishonered rather than Theif....
    and Theif was medival fantasy? seriously?
    ah...shit. every time I look at this picture..oh..fuxx them.
  17. SmartCheetah

    SmartCheetah It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Feb 23, 2009
    Well, original Thief games were pretty much medieval fantasy with steampunk elements (as it wasn't a typical steampunk setting)

    Now they went for total steampunk (Because why bother having an original setting?)
  18. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    Quick time events?



  19. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Wait, what? Shouldn't be the opposite?


    He's right. Back then the big games were actually good.

    God, this game has so much fail written all over it.
  20. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Hellion, you should design that picture so that if you fold the two sides together it forms a hand that flips the old fans the finger because that is what this feels like.

    I am not going into detail what I dislike but the fact that freedom of jumping is gone as well as the more 'fantastic' elements shows how neutered this is.