Trump wins

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Throatpunch, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. TransgenderVaultDeweller

    TransgenderVaultDeweller "Fallout 4 adds to the lore"

    426
    Aug 14, 2015


    Bernie or no Bernie, The message is pretty clear and the united states i the only FIRST WORLD country to not have affordable and universal healthcare, College tuition so on and so forth. What do you have to show for the lack of it? A trillion dollar investment in a new type of military aircraft and bases that do fuck all anyways because we have such military spending and military tech we could be in fucking the middle east without them in less than eight hours m8.

    Further addendum. Again, Just because you get a degree doesn't mean you're going to get a job in the field you studied in at once. Then it goes towards increasing the national debt and then you have some loans that have interest on them ontop of that and the next thing you know you're working double overtime in some shitty casino while you're studying so you can get the upper hand in paying the debt off.

    This "free shit" as you say is paid for by the tax payers as a significant lower price that if it were to be out of pocket right at the front counter. It also prevents the vultures that are insurance agencies from exploiting people who manage to even get insurance, never-mind private companies that give it to their workers and have to juggle deals and what not. Especially local companies.


    Honest question, Do you like the Affordable Health Care Act?
     
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  2. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Just because everyone else is doing something =/= it being good

    Also you're again continuing to compare the United States with countries a mere fraction of it's size.
    We already tried universal healthcare with Obamacare, it failed.
     
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  3. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    I.E. the get a healthcare plan or pay a fine act.

    Kinda like no child left behind. the bill that cuts funding to schools if they don't meet testing standards thus leaving a shit ton of children behind.

    Europe wants those American military bases. if they weren't there, they would have to pay for their own military and guess what would be cut first to pay for it? HINT: it wouldn't be the pay for the overlords in Brussels.
    Obama care isn't even univeral healthcare. that meme needs to end. It's expanded Medicade, not that anybody under 70 knows what that is.

    Punk shit kids...
     
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  4. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Lol so if the US cant even maintain Obamacare how tf will going full retardsocialist help?
     
  5. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    What? No. they would need to send tons and tons of people back before something like would ever work here. Massachusetts as something similar but it also has a tiny population.

    That said people should really stop saying Obamacare is Universal Healthcare, they aren't. not even similar. UH sees you bleeding out in Hospital waiting room in Winnipeg.
     
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  6. Ragemage

    Ragemage Wept for Zion

    Feb 20, 2016

    Assuming the "free shit" bit you're referring to is still in reference to Health Care, it's still a huge problem to take advantage of the system, insurance or not. Did you know in most states if you go to the emergency room the government (with our taxes) has to pay for the visit no matter what? You could go in for a sprained toe and the government still has to pay for it. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/18/nation/la-na-emergency-care-20120619 My mother's entire job, working at the Health Care facility Centene, revolves around stopping people from going to the ER because it costs the gov't (and thus the taxpayers) millions of dollars a year. People do it just so their insurance doesn't go up, and that's wrong. The ER should be reserved only for critical emergencies or ones that shouldn't be taken to a local hospital/clinic, but nowadays anyone can just walk into the ER, proclaim they have a problem, and badabing badaboom their treatment is covered.


    You mean "Obamacare"? Fuck no I don't like it. Do you know why? Obamacare has sent the level of people to the ER, especially in my state where we have a lot of "ghettos", through the fucking roof. My mother is dealing with so many damn people going to the ER now just so their insurance doesn't go up because of how many people are fucked over by Obamacare that her paycheck has gone from $70,000 to $135,000. That's nearing double the amount she was making pre-Obamacare. Yet she would gladly give up those extra thousands if it meant our money statewide wasn't going in the toilet. She's not happy making money off of corruption. People cannot afford to go to the hospital, and it's only gotten worse since Obamacare because now people can't afford insurance either, which basically forces them to go to the ER or pay tons of money they don't have to go to a regular hospital/clinic.
     
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  7. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    The real lie is that the taxpayer will get it cheaper with UH. Your argument is everyone should be equally fucked because some people do not want to pay things like 'interest', or want to 'deal with insurance companies'. The average default rate for this country is around 11-12 percent.. Hardly the horror story you seem to be making it out to be.

    Defense spending isn't just about the ME, it is mostly about keeping Russia and China in check. We spend what we spend to make sure that WE lead the way in military technology and that countries like Russia and China, are always playing catchup. Well in Chinas case all they do is copy and make an inferior version. I mean, if we are to have stealth bombers and fighters, DECADES before our rivals, you have to spend the money.

    If one can't afford to pay rent, make car payments, what the fuck ever, after graduation, simple, MOVE THE FUCK BACK HOME WITH MOMMY AND DADDY. Any worthwhile degree will only set someone back momentarily. If they were smart and resourceful enough to get a degree in legal, engineering, or any hard science degree that is in demand, that same person will be resourceful enough to figure out a way to make it through the transition. USUALLY, any graduate who plans on studying in those fields have employers WAITING to hire them after they graduate. What kind of idiot goes to med school and doesn't have some kind of plan afterwards?

    A question for you Transgender. What degree would you be talking about that is worthwhile yet makes the holder un-employable, atleast in the short term?

    ACA? Fuck no, it is terrible. In Arizona alone, premiums have DOUBLED and the amount of carriers went from 11 to TWO.

    Not to mention all the Americans who are going to get shafted out of 600 bucks because they would rather get penalized than pay outrageous monthly premiums that would cost even MORE at the end of the year.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
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  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    It's not just an opinion that is voiced only outside the military, someone from the military even once said, trim the fat, not the muscle. Just because there is a fuck ton of money thrown at the Pentagon, doesn't mean that it actually ends up where it's needed. I mean, If your soldiers in Afghanistan are complaining about he fact that they have fuck old humwees that are not correctly protected against the dangers they face, where the soldiers have to perform missions with less men, outdated equipment and inadequate weapons, while billions of dollars are spend on projects that 'might' be usefull in 10 years, then you should consider that there is something wrong.

    The conections between the Military and companies Halliburten, Northrop, Bell, Douglas and many more is borderline to corruption, just look at how many projects ended up being 1. way more expensive and 2. how many failures they actually produced, and we havn't even talked about the lobbyism and exchange of money and extraordinary benefits those companies throw out to high ranking officers in hope of gaining the contracts. The military and particularly the industry behind it, have become one of the swampiest swamps in the US.

    I understand, that you Americans are very proud about your military, that you feel your safety is worth any trouble and a certain degree of supremacy with the military gives you protection. That's all understandable. But what I do not understand, is how you believe that all of this is secured simply by giving the military more money to play and toy with, while the needs and complains of the troops that are ACTUALLY in combat, are often ignored. Strange, how there is always money for companies and bases inside the US, but when it comes to the actuall fighting force, it's not rare that they have to deal with outdated equipent and performing their duty while understaffed. Missions where they would actualyl require some armor and heavy weapons, are denied for 'political' reasons - someone could get the idea it's a war if tanks are present! - Or beacuse it would be simply to expensive to deploy artillery units. I am pretty sure any Veteran who has spend some time outside the US and in combat, can tell you their little stories about how the 'money' the military gets, sometimes ends up in places, where it simply doesn't belong.


    I also find it interesting how some believe, that all the US has to do is to make it more difficult for companies to outsource jobs, make a tax on it! Close the borders! And everything will be fine. As if ... the real new boogie man, is automation. Many of the jobs that dissapear right now, are not just disapearing because Mexcians do it for 1/3 of the money.

    This, is why many jobs will be 'lost' in the future.


    And if you thnk that Trump, or any other big mouth of a politican, REALLY works on that problem right now, then you're really delusional.
     
  9. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    U.S. military spending, although quite big compared to other nations, has been on the decline for quite some time overall. Yet even with those cuts, our government still has issues in relation to balancing the budget and taking care of problems. See, that is the problem with PEOPLE and bureaucracy. There is going to be some corruption and mismanagement. That is why it is so important that we keep government funded and working, yet make sure it does not get too bloated.

    A lot of time, those 'failures', that you mentioned Crni, provided jobs to people. Just because things do not work out doesn't mean it was a complete loss. Somebody had to build those prototypes, develop them, test them, etc, etc.

    The left knocks the military so much but yet always fails to see how much employment the military related projects brings about.
     
  10. TransgenderVaultDeweller

    TransgenderVaultDeweller "Fallout 4 adds to the lore"

    426
    Aug 14, 2015


    DM your skypes If you want to actually argue this. So i can go over it more efficently. Crin or anyonelse is more than welcome to come.
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    And exactly about how many jobs are we talking here? Maybe a handfull of designers at Bell, working on a high class prototype that might or might not be a cuting edge fighter. And yet, the number of dead-end prototypes that costed nothing but billions of dollars, or projects where the company promised everything under the sun, is ... quite long, and lets not even talk about how much of the money actually goes to the share-holders and not even the engineers working on the tech.
    For example, the price of one completely equiped Leopard 2 of the newest generation, is enough to provide EVERY new born child in Germany for at least one year with food and diapers. And the Abrams isn't so different when it comes to the price. This really is not a new discussion and started already with Eisenhower when he mentioned the Military-Industrial-Complex, who also has no democratic process behind it. The US really has to be carefull that their military doesn't become a state within the state. Some would argue, that it is already there.

    And I say it again, a lot of money is spend in some of those projects and who knows what other kind of deals, while the troops ON THE DIRECT FRONTLINE, have to do their job with old, sometimes even outright outdated equipment, or insufficient weapon systems, because the deployment of heavy stuff is seen as to costly. I am curious how many lives have been lost or how many soldiers got injured simply because someone decided to leave the Abrams, artillery units or the better protected tracked troop transporters at home.
    Money well spend I guess.

    Yeah ... except that even Eisenhower was worried about the military budged and expenditure.

    In the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

    The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded. Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of an elite.

    We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow. Down the long lane of the history yet to be written, America knows that this Earth of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be, instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect. Such a confederation must be one of equals. The weakest must come to the conference table with the same confidence as do we, protected as we are by our moral, economic, and military strength. That table, though scarred by many past frustrations, cannot be abandoned for the certain agony of the battlefield."


    I am not some kind of anti-military guy, who says that we should get rid of everything, I understand the need for a military. But I have the opinion, that we should invest in the military, but not more than we actually need.
     
  12. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    I agree with you here Crni. I guess the problem comes down to who decides what projects can be cut and what cannot.

    In certain situations, sometimes theory can only go so far. Whether a weapon or vehicle and how well it would work sometimes requires the thing to be built and tested. It always is better to be the innovator of technology rather than being the one that copies said technology.

    But yea, there is always the risk of corruption and when it is practical, we need to clean house. Sometimes however, a situation may arise where the people who are corrupt provide enough value to justify their more 'negative', aspects.
     
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  13. Plzstandbuy

    Plzstandbuy Lonely Drifter

    84
    Dec 7, 2015
    You guys are confusing Universal Healthcare with Single Payer. I think the Netherlands has universal healthcare, but they have some weird version of private healthcare with some type of government involvement though I don't really understand it.

    Also the fear mongering on anything being socialized needs to stop. You don't bleed out in a waiting room in Single Payer, there is a priority wait list for people who need more immediate help than others. I'm willing to discuss things, but can we please be in the real world and not strawman everthing?
     
  14. peadar87

    peadar87 Still Mildly Glowing

    244
    Jun 4, 2015
    The US spends significantly more per capita on healthcare than the "single payer" nations in Western Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita (yeah, wiki, I know, but the figures are from the WHO)

    There are a few reasons for this, but the main two I've seen are that:
    -European markets are less profit-driven, so unscrupulous providers don't recommend more expensive treatments with higher profit margins.
    -If healthcare is free at the point of use, people are more likely to use it earlier and as prevention, rather than cure, which works out cheaper in the long run.

    The issue is muddied by factors like a higher obesity rate in the States, but overall the positives tend to outweigh the negatives (like people being more likely to miss a GP's appointment if they've not paid for it out of their own pocket)
     
  15. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    There is also something like litigation. Doctors over here in the states have to suggest every treatment under the sun. If they do not, then they are at risk of being sued later on if it is discovered they could have suggested something and didn't.

    There is also price gouging from the service provider. Treatments and costs overall are often inflated greatly if the provider realizes the patient has insurance. They do this because of socialized medicine costs, EMTALA being one primary factor. This is one primary way for hospitals to recoup costs.

    Then there are the insurance companies who, for either profit or many other reasons, will deny coverage for certain procedures. Sometimes its unnecessarily expensive because there is a cheaper alternative or just simply unnecessary.

    You also have people who abuse the system. Foreigners love to mock Americans about how fucking fat, lazy and stupid we all are. Yet, when it comes to mentioning shit like UH, all of a sudden, it is the greatest fucking suggestion since the arrival of Jesus. Those same stupid fucks, we need to not only ALREADY PROVIDE social assistance to them but also GREATLY EXPAND IT.

    Like I say AGAIN for the billionth time. The United States is DIFFERENT. We are different CULTURALLY. Our population is much bigger than that of our socialist neighbors. Our budget, things the government needs to pay for, DIFFERENT than the Europeans.

    A quick addition.

    From what I know of college in Europe, it is a very no nonsense affair. No dorms as their infrastructure allows most students to live at home and simply commute to school. There are no frivolous things like an over reliance on sports as teams like Arsenal, have their own academies and teams in Europe do not draw their athletes from college like we do. There is no real 'campus culture', or 'student unions', or other things of that nature. Degree times are often shorter, with most obtainable in 3 years as opposed to 4. We are more oriented towards a general education mindset and offer more courses whereas our European counterparts are more specialized. Classes in Europe are more reading and lecture intensive, often with the professor in a less pro-active role.

    We can find a better way for things like education and medicine but it isn't going to come about any time soon. Eventually, we will have a system in place that works for our unique situation..
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
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  16. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    Why exactly is this necessary? Why should America be on top, yet no one else? It's not like the Russians are Soviets and the Chinese nazis.
     
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Isn't that leftist propaganda by the way?
    Also, some more leftist propaganda, you've been warned!

    In Gallup Poll, The Biggest Threat To World Peace Is ... America?
    http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008

    Gives you something to think about, kinda.

    During wartime, maybe, but you can't really say that the US as a whole is even near a war-situation right now.

    This is the strange ... thing, they spend more money and resources on their military than ever before - but I think in a lot of wrong places - yet, the world and the US was never as secure from attacks like today. I am talking about real military attacks here. Neither Russia nor China have the capability to directly attack the United States, leave alone beating the US on US soil.
     
  18. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    You guys do get that the US foots the majority of the bill for NATO and basically IS the military for a few European countries.
    I do think that we waste a lot of money in a lot of areas in our military (besides protecting your eurotrash asses) that's not really making us stronger and is just a pointless money sink but our military budget is about more than just defense of the United States itself (again, not that I really think it should be that way, protect yourselves!).

    EDIT: For example
    http://www.military.com/daily-news/...-to-stop-buying-equipment-it-doesnt-need.html
    http://www.military.com/daily-news/...n-buys-abrams-tanks-the-army-doesnt-want.html
    https://www.americanprogress.org/is.../09/6309/a-jet-even-the-military-doesnt-want/
    http://www.businessinsider.com/congress-approves-useless-military-spending-2013-5
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...nwanted-assets-programs-despite-spending.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
  19. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Also another lengthy reminder why you shouldn't trust the lying media.
























     
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  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Unless you post the link, of course.

    *Edit
    By the way, half of those meme-picture-thingies you post have nothing to do with facts or the 'truth' but simply shitty opinions. Not really a great thing, admittely it's shitty journalism, but not outright lies. As someone who says that he doesn't sympathize with the white working class, well hasn't anything to do with truth, but how he/she feels, even if that might be a shitty opinion like said. But they have after all the same right not to care about someone - so called white trailer trash - like you have the right to totally not care about BLM or third wave feminism or what ever. Just saying.
     
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