Wasteland 2 released!

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by WorstUsernameEver, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    Yes, if you could somehow magically transform Wasteland 2 into Fallout Tactics, that would be awesome.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  2. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    Hell yeah there is a second area (rad scorpion cave sort of counts as a 3rd)
    In the second area, I think there is a small plot about some farming, and you can also get some rope there, if I am not mistaken.

    It is pretty clever to rely on your own food production, instead of maybe an outside agricultural center that may or may not be saved by a protagonist.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  3. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    In my 3 or so playthroughs of Fallout, I hadn't the faintest idea that Shady Sands had an extension to it. It's great to find these little 'secrets' (it wasn't exactly hidden from the players' eyes, but still) years after you've completed the game and thought you'd done everything possible.
     
  4. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    Yea, last time I played through Fallout, I found a hidden hunting rifle down in Vault 15 that I had never seen before.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    well if most of the backers are happy, the guys that payed for the project, then I guess the Wasteland 2 team has achieved already their goal.

    Just saying. The game's not perfect, for sure, but I mean if you followed the development then I guess you had a relatively clear picture of what to expect I guess.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  6. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    That is true.


    It just take a bit away from the excitement for me personally. Going into a game cold gives the best experience for me.

    But according to some people here, you have to play 60 hours of Wasteland 2 before you get a clear picture of the game have to offer.
     
  7. Dude101

    Dude101 Vault Fossil
    Modder

    Aug 3, 2005
    NMA.jpg

    Not sure if you have seen this yet. "The Angry men" Miroslav, Silencer, Tagaziel, Sander, Per, Korin.
     
  8. I eat supermutants

    I eat supermutants I'm your friend, Jesus.

    117
    Nov 30, 2013
    Figured they woulda made Per an angry lizard. Go figure.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You're obviously confusing him with Roshambo, it happens, they are both ... lizardy.

    some games take time though before they really show their "best" side. Its like with the two girlfriends, the one is really good looking but not very nice, while the other one is the woman that you marry because she has personality.

    When I started to play Fallout for the first time, and that was Fallout 2, it was already considered old, a classic, but old. I really could not get in to it really, because of its unforgiving nature, temple of trials, getting your ass kicked by rad scorpions and I felt that the turn based combat in Fallout was really a step backward to Jagged Alliance 2 which was the first TB game I ever played, so I decided that it was not worth my time. But after a few months I gave the game another chance, probably out of boredom and tried to be more carefull this time and paying more attention to the mechanics and yeah well over the years I really learned to love and enjoy Fallout, not just because of its gameplay which I believe is still is not that stellar, albeit it gets the job done, but because of the setting, the characters, the whole package.

    Maybe you should try to get as far as you really can in Wasteland 2 and give it some time, come back later, see if you still feel the same etc.

    Just remember, Ranger:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  10. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    heh TB combat of Fallout is surely retarded.
    and that's the reason why Fallout is great, despite combat sucks, it's covered by RP ,quests and art( seriously, death motion of Fallout 1 and 2 are masterpice)

    and what I said is like this "I spent 60 hour for Arizona but 20 hour?"
    because Arizona is less than halfway of WL2.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  11. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    I will finish Wasteland 2.
    I have finished plenty of games that was a miserable experience.
    I don't need much to go on, before I know I will enjoy a game.

    I don't have a nag for noticing fine detail, so the big broad aspects of a game are going to be all important for me. Graphics, sound, music. If I enjoy those 3 things, I enjoy a very big chunk of the game.

    A game will have writers, visual effects artists, sound designers and music composers. They all have a distinct style and an even more distinct style for a single project. The style of the writing, graphics, sound and music (and all other subordinate elements that make up the game) have not changed since the main menu, into how many hours I have put into Wasteland 2 and I doubt they will change for the rest of the games duration.

    A few major things that would put the game into the enjoyable zone for me, would be:

    Change the level design from previously shown "Wasteland 2 logic" to something in the direction of Fallout level design(or like Dark souls if you are going to have a corridor RPG) A level that does not consist of dead end upon dead end that inflate the game time. A level that is interconnected.


    Removal of the rotating camera for the purpose of getting information about the level. The rotating camera should only serve the purpose of offering neat visuals from viewing a skillfully made level from different angles.


    Change the Y axis camera angle for a better view of the level. (at the moment it seems to be a just a few degrees under a 90 degree angle top down view, it gives me a headache for some reason).


    Wasteland 2 have all the great elements, but their design decisions are completely and utterly baffling to me.


    ps. I like your youtube snippet : )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  12. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Dedman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    I think a problem I have Soldat is you dislike two RPG's that may just be the best in the past few years. D:OS for instance. Just making it out the gate in the first town is challenging in D:OS. Sure the difficulty gets easier, and the writing could be stronger, but I really liked the combat and challenge. If you like a relatively mediocre game like Fallout Tactics (without mods at least) because of the combat I assume, then I can't see how the tactical elements in D:OS don't appeal. Do you know how the combat system works in that? Using the elements to interact with the environment? I loved casting the rain spell and electrifying it, or throwing a poison liquid down and catching it on fire. I can only assume you haven't played it since the latest patch as well, which I do believe added two new companions. Hell there are so many different ways to play that game it's crazy. I am eager to play back through with a rogue type character.

    I'm a bit confused how one can praise Fallout Tactics, but disregard W2 as well. Are you generally disappointed with the combat? I would have to assume so since that is all Fallout Tactics has going for it in comparison. I've actually been playing Tactics with the Redux mod, which has made it actually enjoyable, but I couldn't say that is how Wasteland 2 should be. Wasteland 2 has more RPG elements to it, but less tactical really. The story in Tactics was pretty awful, so I wager you aren't praising that. Good to see you might tough it out. My purpose in this is seeing if you enjoy W2 eventually. Purely for research purposes ;).....

    I also like to understand why someone doesn't like something, particularly something that I view to be pretty decent, not without it's flaws, but great potential. I see potential. Too bad Unity is hard as shit to mod for. That may make it difficult for me to do a few things I want. I have similar stories as Crni about games I quit, but ended up loving later. I can't say a few camera quirks are going to bug me, and they damn sure wouldn't cause me to give up playing. I have a completionist streak in me when it comes to RPG's though. This is the sequel to Wasteland, which many are seeming to forget. Most people playing this never played the first one. I've seen people complaining about story elements and factions that are similar to Fallout, because they were in the original Wasteland! So it is rational to try and understand what the problems are to try and make them better. Hence this discussion

    If anyone came here to bash one of the games that launched the cRPG and old school Fallout/Wasteland revival, then they should expect others to argue otherwise. So I am curious why you and others are seemingly oblivious to why we don't necessarily agree with you. Like minded community and all that. Gamer cred so to speak comes to play as well, hence the questions about what you played. I do agree the stalking of your Steam account was a bit much, but it did help to stir the discussion more at least.


    Moving right along now....


    Seems Wasteland 2 may have a loot problem. Random loot is kinda shitty from what I hear. Also, not being able to sneak is a severe downside. I would think it is vital. It makes the game sound more and more like an Xcom lite/RPG. I'm hoping future updates will remedy this. Also, what the fuck is up with the character portraits? Inexcusable. I would rather they take them out rather than leave the shit how it is. Black woman with white portraits? It looks sloppy. I would rather they waited to ship the game when it was more complete. It does make me slightly worried about future prospects if this is the condition the games are launched in. The game would have been rated higher no doubt with a little more polish. I know some would rather play it now, but I'm kinda glad I don't have my copy yet. The latest patch didn't change a whole lot besides change the jamming percentage since people complained too much.

    The typos and writing errors are really fucking annoying too. That I cannot look past in a game. Ever. That shit needs to be fixed before I even bother investing all my time into the game. Maybe it isn't as bad as all the screenshots and videos I have seen. I still haven't tried it so this isn't first hand knowledge, but typos and writing fuckups in a RPG kill me. Literally. I die inside each time I see typos in one of these games. I know they boasted how much words they put in the fucking thing, but it doesn't matter if half the shit is poorly written or misspelled. Little things like that do add up. I'll recap my opinion on what the game needs in updates.


    What Wasteland 2 needs at the moment:

    Fix the numerous problems with the portraits, typos, bugged quests, and such. No brainer really. Either match the portraits up or use something closer. They seem random and that doesn't fly. I can use my imagination, but a black dude with a white portrait is retarded. I don't mind small grammar mistakes either, but outright typos bug the shit out of me. Fix it please. I know of one quest where a guy gets his arm cut off, but he later has it back. Unless he got a robotic arm, that sounds like a bug. I know you guys are tracking that though.

    Can you do some hand placed loot at all? The loot sounds pretty borked. Unlocking trapped containers for throwaway shit sounds too much like Divinity: OS and the problems it had with loot. Fallout didn't have that problem. I felt like there were things hidden that were unique. I understand they are trying to make the skill useful, but at least make it worth it. Random trash encounters sounds too much like Tactics. More unique random encounters would make the game shine.

    Once again, expanding the tactical elements of the game is a must. Sneaking should be in. Prone should be in, but I can do without if I have to. Xenonauts doesn't have prone and it works out alright. Special grenades are a must though. What kind of elite military unit doesn't have breach and clear type equipment? Grenades guys. More of them. I don't know what all is and isn't in, but I know smoke and flash aren't. WP grenades would be nice if they aren't in. Cryo grenades were cool in New Vegas. Tear gas even. The game needs more elements like that to deal with.

    I know some of the little quirks are not easily fixable. The camera sounds like a chore, but workable so I'll deal. I'm sure extra areas could be added in the future. Perks. Some sort of perk or trait system. I know it is possibly in the works, so I won't harp too much, but that is really needed. Combat is king in games like this. Not having unique kill animations for critters is disappointing as well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  13. Emperor

    Emperor Simplesmente Rajuma

    393
    Aug 4, 2013
    While I agree with you that graphic, sound and music at the least things that change while playing a game ( because music can change) I disagree with you that writing stays the same, maybe the basic structure of it. There are games that start awful but while you keep playing it, it start to get better.

    A bad example but it's the only one that comes to my mind right now, is Deus Ex, the first one. The beginning of it it's all right but the further you go, specially at the near and half of the game the story gets strange and complicated, it stays a bit like this for a while but it explains itself in the ending. The matter is, while at the strangest part of it, I have seen people quitting the game because the story is not making any sense and they go telling that the game's plot is just bad, but they didn't finish the game to really know the story. Of course, the background story ( books,journals,etc) sometimes , indirectly, gives some sense to the story but only reaching the end you get the full picture.

    @TorontRayne maybe the gods listened to you, because right now, while I'm writing this, Wasteland 2 is downloading a 6,5 G patch.
     
  14. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    Divinity Original Sin.
    Divinity Original Sin. I created a character I did not care about at all, and I could not make a character that I cared about. The tone seems all over the place. I was supposed to investigate a murder of someone I did not know who was or cared about. The combat I did try, consisted of me using the attack ability.
    I don't care about Divinity: Original Sin. I don't say it is a bad game. If someone gives it 10/10 I am fine with that.




    Wasteland 2, its combat and how it holds up compared to Fallout Tactics because it is a good example of the subjectmatter done well.
    So far, the tactical combat in Wasteland 2 have consisted of me getting in range with whatever firearm and attacking. It works very well so far. And that is as far as my tactical mind have had to go so far. And that is fine(I guess).

    I do however like the combat more in Fallout and a lot more in Fallout Tactics.

    What makes gunfights fun in these RPG games
    What makes the combat fun for me?
    For starters, the weaponry.
    History is very interesting to me, including that of conflict and armament.
    So having a real life weapon, with the correct graphics, the correct ammunition type, the correct properties of the ammunition, and the correct tactical role and properties of the weapon.
    Or something that simulates or represent that.
    And the correct description and information about the weapon.


    If not a real life weapon, then made up weapons, like in Fallout. A made up weapon that I believe would be feasible and makes sense. It have a cool description and backstory that maybe tells us it comes from a real life armaments manufacturer.
    Now I care about the weapon I have acquired in the game, and I am excited about using it in the game.
    When actually using the weapon, it most look for lack of a better word 'cool' when my character uses the weapon.
    It must feel good to use the weapon. The sound, the reaction from my character and the reaction from my opponent getting hit by the weapon. Having a believable range.
    Fallout and Fallout Tactics succeeds very well in all this for my taste.


    In wasteland 2 everything I have just tried to explain seem to be the opposit.
    First off, if you put points into a weapon skill, your character will start with a weapon of that skill category. That is very boring. When I first played Fallout, and saw the energy weapon skill, I thought it was a joke. There could not possibily be working high tech weaponry still in excistance. But when you find one, that is very exciting, and it is a fantastic contrast tot he world. This super high tech and high powered piece of tech in this almost lifeless, crude and destroyed world. It is very satisfying to have found a technological goldnugget in an otherwise stoneage looking world.


    Instead you can start out with phase-pistols, heavy machineguns and sniperrifles. Well, there won't be any satisfaction in aquireing lost pre war tech world tech.
    But let's have a look at these weapons.

    Wasteland 2 and toy guns
    In wasteland 2 I started out with an M2 heavy machine gun. The name and the graphics are clearly modelled on the M2 Browning .50 cal heavy machine gun.
    Instead the wasteland 2 version uses .223 cal/5.56mm ammo (pee shooter ammo compared to the .50 cal bricks) a machine gun that have not strength requirements.
    Heavy weapons mean; Something a man cannot shoulder and operate effectively.
    The Wasteland M2 kills a person in 1-3 bursts, without any noticeable armor.
    For my concern Wasteland 2 have now ruined the M2 machine gun.
    (I can repeat what I just said for most other weapons I have seen.)

    Fallout and real guns

    In Fallout Tactics, you can get an M2 Browning heavy machine gun, it weighs a 'ton'
    You need 9 strength to operate the weapon properly. So even a power armored person might not even be able to wield it.
    It fires .50 cal ammo that also weigh a 'ton'
    The weapon have a very long range only rivaled buy sniper rifles. Eat mussels ammo and not even the hardiest of enemies can stand against it.
    The guns in Wasteland 2 comes of as toy imitations, a cheap bb gun that have a range of a couple of meters.

    Fallout Tactics, tactics
    In Fallout Tactics, the firearms have a much much more range so you can have something else than a toy gun battle, this can open up for tactics.


    I remember one scenario, where I placed 5 people with long range rifles on top of a building, and then used my 6th guy to lure the opposition into the open
    where the 5 other people had free line of fire to cover the 6th guy that was running for his life.


    In another scenario I placed people with burst fire weapons around a corner and then waited for a enemy patrol or lured the enemy around that corner
    and then get blown bits by automatic fire. Or I could have placed mines.


    I have tried to sneak my team inside a building to get up close to the enemy, and murder them all before they knew what hit them.


    In another scenario I have attacked a building from multiple entrances and openings. People rushing inside, people throwing grenades inside,
    people stealthing inside to get good positions and people from a far putting in sniper fire.


    Wasteland 2 tactics
    I see none of these things in Wasteland 2. The level design does not really give you an opportunity to do something tactically creative.
    Neither does the combat system. It does not give you any real opportunity to set up an ambush, stealth attack or mine an area.
    All it does is activate turned based combat, let the enemy go first, and in a few meters short of melee range we have a toy gun battle.
    No strategy, no tactics, just clicking attack until it is over.





    I found the story in Fallout Tactics to be more engaging and relatable than anything I have seen in Wasteland 2.
    In Fallout Tactics People act more like real people, the orginisation I work for seem to focus on the important things at hand.
    Not so much in Wasteland 2.



    When I am now sitting and playing Wasteland 2, I think; maybe I am being harsh on the game. But then I come here on the forum, you guys write interesting things, and pose interesting questions that makes me think, and the problems pile up even further the longer I get into the game and it compounds in on itself and I am so far in the game, that it is beyond repair.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2014
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  15. Geech

    Geech It Wandered In From the Wastes

    183
    Dec 2, 2008
    Fallout Tactics should have deeper combat than Wasteland 2, since Fallout Tactics is exclusively a tactical combat game. Microforte didn't have to script complex quests, write branching dialog, or worry about player agency. Hell, they didn't even bother to learn the lore of the Fallout world. It's preposterously unfair to judge the combat of Wasteland, an RPG, exclusively against the combat of a tactical game, especially when so few RPGs, even classics, have good combat. Fallout and Fallout 2 had incredibly shallow turn-based combat. Arcanum's combat was pretty mediocre, and so was Planescape Torment's.

    Wasteland 2 has overwatch (ambush), crouching, and an actual cover mechanic, all of which I've used repeatedly in the game. I've learned that relatively positioning of my Rangers is often hugely important, if I want to be able to use them to their full effect. Not every combat requires the use of the these tactics or would even benefit from them, but that would be an unreasonable expectation. The combat fares pretty well when compared to games of the same genre.

    Don't get me wrong, it's a flawed game, but I do believe it's good. It's too bad that it didn't fulfill your (apparently very specific) hopes, but you seem to have come into the forum with a weird chip on your shoulder about it.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  16. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    Yup, I know what you mean! Heavy machine gunner is a competent strongpoint breaker in FOT, even armored turrets with several hundreds of hitpoints can't withstand a short burst of .50 uranium depleted bullets. Tactical choices aside, this simple touch of realism alone makes wonders in your imagination. You could actually *feel* how those badass bullets are tearing that shit apart! :twisted:
     
  17. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    No, no it's not at all preposterously unfair to wanting a lot more from the combat in Wasteland 2. A game where you spend the majority of your time murdering things. You are a 4-6 man squad working for a military organization where the leader have the military rank of general. Furthermore the organisation is called Rangers.
    In the olden days, rangers learned about ranging from the native americans and integrated that into their western style. Now they could use small teams of soldiers(rangers) to move around fast, effectively and put up resistance opposed to massive batteries of soldiers and armement that needed a lot of upkeep and decent roads or paths to move forward.

    Today rangers are elite shock troops that can further specialize in different branches of the soldier trade. They can also be called upon to do unconventional warfare that regular infantry would not have the skill-set to do.

    The opening live action scene is about murder.
    The first thing I had to do in wasteland was go to an antenna and murder people and animals because I did not have skill points in their shallow dialog system (hard ass etc,)
    Next I had to go to our food supplier and murdered creatures and people by the truck load. After that our water supplier, same story as before.
    Next up I moved to a raider camp that made no sense, and murdered even more people without ever being able to speak with them.
    Next up, the prison, murdering more heavily armed and fortified people without any chance of dialog.
    And so on...

    Ambush ability, this is laughable. Isn't an ambush supposed to take place right before an engagement begins and not during the engagement? Still, I am happy they have this overwatch ability, opposed to nothing.
    Cover magically gain bonus stats, no matter what side of the cover you are on. Only selective pieces of things will infuse this magic upon you. Better then nothing I guess
    Crouching. Get infused with improved stats.
    Positioning, don't stand in a blob if you face AOE weapons. Stand in range. Basically irrelevant. Move you blob into aggro zone, and click attack when it is your turn.

    making a game where you command a squad of heavily armed soldiers in a constantly hostile enviroment, and then being confused when the player is baffled about a very shallow combat system is:
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Nzjs2tze4Jo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2014
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  18. Soldatmesteren

    Soldatmesteren First time out of the vault

    51
    Sep 24, 2014
    Ups sorry, ment to write "guzzels ammo" not "eat mussels ammo" and Only rivaled by(not buy) sniper rifles.
    But yes, a cartoony vapor of small red hearts rises from me, when I let loose a burst of depleted uranium .50 cal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2014
  19. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    Every game has it's flaws even Fallout has many of them.

    to Soldatmesteren
    Actully, some of your critique is right and I could agree with you.
    but your grounds of critique doesn't make sense at all.
    if it wasn't your taste, then fine, but you said it was you critique of WL2.
    you should experience more than 80% of certain game for critique.
    if not, it can't be critique at all but just meaningless gibberish.

    personally, for me, WL2 is good game.
    many aspects of WL2 satisfied me.
    but also, many aspects are dissapointed me.

    for example:
    absent of time make game more feel like driven by fixed plot some choices are dissapointing, attribute system doesn't seem to work properly outside of combat, sometimes, AI stops, too much dependent on combat(well, compare to Fallout 1 and 2), as a keyword dialog system, it doesn't feel so good maybe because of retarded people who don't know well about keyword but trying to banned it because of obsession of Fallout, etc.
    but I just didn't discuss much because I didn't finish the game.
    actually, I have more problem but most of them solved while I keep playing.
    and I can find more vallid critique points while playing it.

    you can't find more vallid points of critique if you don't finish it.
    you can't cancel your wrong points if you don't finish it.
    and if you don't find more vallid points and remove wrong points, then your critique will became worthless



    personally, I don't think WL2 is not great as WL1(same for Fallout 1 though).
    maybe it's because of influence of Fallout, or maybe it's because of combat-tards(combat wasn't that important at WL1...)
    or it's because absent of time or physical skill.
    but still, I think WL2 has great potential and itself is one of the best game after 2010.
     
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  20. Lexx

    Lexx Background Radiant
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    When reading about Arcanum combat here... Well, Arcanum combat was pretty much "click the enemy till he dies, hope not to die from the enemy". And with high enough skill it was "pop the enemy in two or three turns, then move on with life". :>


    PS: I don't think that Fallout: Tactics combat gameplay was that great either. The only tactic that I used was to hide behind a corner, switch to realtime and let the enemies run into my fire. Every once in a while I had to snipe someone from the distance, but most of the time it was corner-shooting.

    What I would like to see is a game where it really matters to get your men into the right position. A game that is more about getting your men ready than the actual combat that follows. So if you are in a bad position / didn't think about the strong and weak points of your men and their weapons, the enemy would simply mow you down. Especially if they have more men than you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2014
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