Come and see... the live show of a war going on

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Gonzalez, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign WHO DO YOU THINK THAT IS THERE? Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Well, I'm sure your ancestors at some point did the same thing Gonzalez. I see a lot of anger directed at a country that IS NOT bombing the fuck out of Europe right now, while you side with someone who has repeatedly violated the sovereignty of nations who were basically minding their own business.
  2. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    Gonzalez, again, are you a firm believer that two wrongs make a right?
  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Are you one in double moral? Ask your self what the US would do if it was hypoteticaly speaking about Mexico or Canada and the Warsaw pact getting closer to their borders. Or what we Europs would do if Iran/China would get closer to the European borders.

    Lets face it. What Russia has done in the Crimea was wrong, but it was understandable, from their point of view.

    Indeed they are extremly dangerous. Look how close those evil Russians placed their nation to our NATO bases!

    I think it is fair to say that the West, which includes the US and Europe has done a lot more to fuck up nations in the last 20-25 years, if only because of the cold war and the outcome, the NATO was simply the winner here. And there can be no doubt that it was most probably the better outcome. But, in the end you have to see the situation how it is today, and for a large part of the world, the west is simply the evil force out there. I know we don't like to hear this, but it is the reality. They don't like us out there. Particularly the US. And you have to ask your self. Why? Not everything can be explained by religious fanatism or propaganda, often enough the stuff they say is even one way or another true, we manipulated nations, stole resources, killed people, started wars ruin nations and in general don't give a single fuck about what happens outside of our western bubble, millions of starving North Koreans don't bother anyone really. Neither the Ebola in Africa or their situation in general. Simply because there is noting to gain here. But Ukraine, there you can make politics. Neither the US nor Europe are there because of human rights. That is the joke of the century. At least with Putin you know what he's up to. More or less.

    I find it interesting that Putin is described as a dictator while we have faces like Berlusconi or some former Greek politicans inside of the European Nation. It is also interesting to mention how many of the European Nations started to become kinda more open to right wing politics, did you ever heard about the French National? They are becoming Socialy Acceptable.

    How goes that saying? The glasshouse and the stones.

    We are always very quick with our jugment, but we stubbornly refuse to clean our own front gardens. If we can exist in an European Union where someone like Berlusconi is a member than you can call Putin a deomcrat I think, if you use the same kind of standarts.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
  4. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    I live in a country where a nation 15.000 kilometers away controls 73% of it's territorial sea and ignores every single resolution the UN votes to sit down and talk about it, and now they are unilaterally increasing their military presence because, guess who, Russia of all nations, is feared to aid us retake the islands, a statement that is most propostrously ovblivious of reality. The British troops in the islands have more chances of invading us than us invading the islands, and the notion that evil Russia is going to help us re-take them is one of the most ridiculous things i've seen in a piece of news. If britain is far away from the islands then Russia is about twice as away as them.

    And then you want me to damn Russia for violating international law when a NATO nation does the exact same thing in my country. It's the joke of the century.

    Believe me, I hope it were true and Russia helped us retake 73% of our territorial sea, but the truth is that I live in a country that is increasingly being threatened by NATO military presence and the country who does this is 15.000 kilometers away from here. I don't think I can damn Russia for looking after it's own borders.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
  5. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010

    Why not damn them both?
  6. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    In the risk of being selfish, one threatens me directly, the other doesnt.

    I did said howver, that I did not approve of the specific actions in Ukraine and denounced them as going against international law, no discussion there. I do understand however how much loosing Crimea hurts Russia, and while if it is a justification or not is arguable, there is no doubt of why they would always prefer to have bad realtions with the west than to let go of it, they just can't afford it.

    What would I propose? A middle ground. Instead of hurl sanctions at Russia, put yourself in their shoes, and come up with something were perhaps Russia returns Crimea to Ukraine, and in turn Ukraine agrees to let Russia have a naval base there and that no NATO missiles or weapons that could threaten Russias border be deployed in Ukraine territory. I don't know, discuss it, like Germany is doing, instead of critizicin Germany for being too "soft".

    I don't see that happening though since we all saw how NATO keept incresing the number of missiles in eastern Europe.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
  7. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    I'm not arguing whether or not it makes sense to take over Crimea. Of course there's a reason for it. The problem here is I can't seem to criticize Russia for an illegal annexation - because as soon as I do, I'm suddenly a Bush-loving, Iraq War-supporting American. I don't see the connection, do you?

    Perhaps I misunderstood Toront's post, but he was only stating a fact - that Russia did, in fact, violate the sovereigneity of several nations. And is doing so right now, in Ukraine. How is the US, NATO, CIA or whoever else relevant here? Outside of the fact that they are not bombing Ukraine, and in fact have been holding lethal aid although according to the Budapest Memorandum the US and UK should have had their paratroopers and marines all over Crimea making sure it remains part of Ukraine.

    I may not know much about European politics - but I do know that far-right, Nazi, fascist parties from Europe are not just 'becoming', but already are socially acceptable in Russia. They just had their forum in St. Petersburg. They throw zieg hails, wave the banner of a pseudo-swastika, and believe themselves to be the successor of NSDAP politics.

    A great example is deputy of the EU Parliament, Udo Voight. About 8 months ago, Russian news networks were all over the fact that a Nazi was allowed into the European parliament... Calling him supporter of SS, praiser of NSDAP and Hitler. Now he's claimed to be an anti-fascist. And then the Russian politicians are so obsessed with the 'remembering World War Two', to the point that they request jail sentences for those who dare to question or desecrate the memory.

    And then they begin to rewrite history. That Russia did not, in fact, lose the First World War. That it was the fault of inter-country politics that took the country apart. Compare this with Hitler's claims that German traitors had lost the war. Or that Germany never paid its reparations to Soviet Union. Or that Alaska should rightfully belong to Russia...

    That's how a fascist government begins. You rewrite history, focusing on the idea of nationalism and international revenge. You start co-operating with other fascists, support their politics. You kill political opposition and social activists, like the late Boris Nemtsov (rest in peace). You invade other countries and annex territories.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
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  8. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003

    Why would Russia lose Crimea? You're constantly trying to force the situation into the mold of the Cold War, but no matter how much you try to do it, you're not going to succeed. If Russia did not invade, occupy, and annex Crimea, they wouldn't have lost it.

    In general, if Russia did not behave like a revanchist asshole, it would have no problems. Closer cooperation and friendly relations with Europe could only be a boon for Russia and the Russian economy. It's not rocket science.

    Hell, if Russia wants NATO to dissolve, all they had to do is cooperate with Europe and the United States and not be an asshole. You're saying losing Crimea is a disaster of biblical proportions - as if an economic meltdown and a reinvigorated, strengthened NATO weren't.

    I understand you are military and all, but the world doesn't revolve around the size of each country's proverbial camo-dick.

    Because, let's see, Germany and France aren't states of the union? Why do you insist on forcing this into a binary situation, where you're either

    Fanaticism? It's called Realpolitik. Some Americans might not be fond of the European Union and that's fine. What matters is that the United States remains an ally of the European Union, as much for economic reasons as for military ones. The sole remaining superpower is a pretty handy friend to have.

    Really, it's simple arithmetic of power. The United States is strong. Europe could use a strong friend.

    Oh, cry me a river. Boo hoo. Germany and Austria occupied Poland for pretty much the entire 19th century, attempting to eradicate Poland and the Polish identity. In the 20th, Germany and annexed Austria subjugated my country together with the Soviets, killed some 5.5 million of my countrymen in combat, in death camps, in massacres across the entire occupied area, deliberately destroyed the culture and history of my nation, and committed countless atrocities. And yet now Germany and Poland are cooperating closely and have very close political, economic, and even social ties. Hell, I live in Germany as an equal.

    The key difference here is that Germany stopped behaving like an asshole, while Russia continues to. It also directly threatens my country.

    In summary, get over it.

    I was referring to your hate-boner for the United States and claiming that the United States doesn't care about Europe (it does) and that Europe should care about bringing Russia into the fold at any cost.

    Here's the deal: Russia needs Europe, but Europe doesn't need Russia.

    Apparently, expecting a nation to not behave like a belligerent, revanchist asshole is demanding them to bend over.

    I'm amazed at your logic.

    So? It's Russia's own fault. Again, behaving like an asshole will get you treated like an asshole.

    Then again, what do you expect from a country with a Chekist at the helm?

    Let's face it, what Rudolf Hoss has done in Auschwitz was wrong, but it was understandable, from his point of view.

    Let's face it, what Josef Fritzl has done was wrong, but it was understandable, from his point of view.

    Let's face it, what Stalin has done in Katyń was wrong, but it was understandable, from his point of view.

    Hey, let's pretend we're deeply intellectual by relativizing absolutely fucking everything. Everything's acceptable when you look at it from the right angle!

    Hey, let's ignore the entirety of Cold War and the context in which NATO expanded!

    Hey, let's arbitrarily create a time limit to prop up a flimsy argument and pretend to be deeply intellectual with an exercise in self-hate!

    Your self-loathing is starting to become grating, Crni. That's apart from the fact that merely moaning about how evil the West is (it isn't) doesn't really help things, as does ignoring the fact that the West is pretty much the benchmark for success, what with the highest levels of technological development, life expectancy, quality of life, absence of war, and so on and so forth.

    Did it happen at the expense of other countries? Yes. Recognizing that fact is the first step to helping others and building a better future. But sitting around on Internet forums, pretending to be deeply intellectual by decrying how evil the West is (it isn't) is about as counter-productive as it gets, short of dressing up and shooting up a youth rally or the office of a satirical newspaper.

    What do you propose? Military action? Didn't you say, in the same paragraph no less, that the West starts too many wars and manipulates nations?

    If it's war you so desperately want, have you considered that invading North Korea would cause them to flatten Seoul and kill millions pretty much instantly?

    How about instead of whining you do some fucking research for a change? Here, Wikipedia is a Google away.

    But just in case you do not feel like confronting your self-loathing with facts, here's a few figures as to the total contribution (I'm counting monetary contributions or their equivalent, where available):

    Reference (major non-Western countries)

    China: ~$80,000,000

    Russia: $19,000,000 (public) + $10,000,000 (private)

    India: $10,000,000

    The West

    United Kingdom: $360,000,000 pledged

    United States: $22,000,000 (DoD), total White House estimate at ~$100,000,000

    France: $90,000,000

    Netherlands: ~$45,000,000

    Israel: ~$9,000,000

    Ireland: $3,900,000

    Norway: $2,700,000

    New Zealand: $2,000,000

    Germany: ~$130,000,000 pledged, at least ~$22,000,000 delivered by September 2014

    Japan: $2,000,000


    They're aren't there because of human rights because you say so?

    You know what's the joke of the century? That privileged citizens of the West are capable of such a deep hatred for success and prosperity, that they would willingly undermine their own nations because they were convinced that they ought to feel guilty for being Western, completely forgetting that feeling guilty is a substitute for being active.

    If you feel guilty about being Western, contribute to a charity instead of moaning how you're feeling guilty.

    Oh my fucking god, you went and used isolated examples of nutjobs in European politics and sued them to equate Europe to excuse a country becoming a nationalist, revanchist autocracy.

    For fuck's sake, I'd laugh if it weren't so tragic.

  9. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Tagz, you live in a very different world than me, that much is clear. You said that Russia needs Europe, but Europe doesn't need Russia. Then why do you care? Please, let Russia do whatever it wants, and feel free to hurl sanction after sanction, and if you feel so strongly about it go fight in the ukrainian army's side against the rebels with the rest of your fellow poles who are there. It makes no difference to me, I already told you what is going to happen.

    To be honest, when you say things like "they didn't had to loose Crimea, only if they decided to work with the EU instead of against the EU", how can I possible even begin to reason with you when you have such concepts of the world around you. It's just baffles me. I mean, if I have to explain it again, not that it would make any difference because it would just bounce right off of you. So, you know what? You win, whatever you think this argument is about. You are just going to change reality around it to make it fit your own. But you and I for sure have nothing more to talk about.

    For you the world is an entire unipolarity with western ideology at it's center.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
  10. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003

    I care because Russia is pretty much outright threatening to invade Poland and the Baltic States? Which, given the centuries of violence perpetrated by Russia on foreigners of pretty much every place on the globe, is not a particularly pleasant prospect?

    Is the idea of nations coexisting and cooperating in peace, without threatening military action, invading each other, and killing people by the hundreds that alien and sinister to you?

    It isn't. However, I don't pretend that all poles are equal and differ only in details. Some poles are simply better at giving people freedom, safety, and a good quality of life.
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I just believe that we as the west are not in a position to tell Russia what hey should or should not do, to make this clear, I do not defend Putin or his actions nor do I think that he has any rights in Ukraine or Crimea. But it is very comparable to the situation in Kosovo and what the Nato/Europe did there. It is very similar in nature and even today an unsolved issue. Most probably for many generations to come. I always cringe when I see our politicans in Germany talking about Russia as like we and our moral exist in some kind of vaccum.

    Don't get me wrong. I understand your resentment with Russia. Its just that when you think historically they are not Mordor with Putin as Sauron and we as the west are not the Avangers with the task to save the day.

    As a Serbian I know very well what western democracy and justice sometimes mean.

    All I am really saying is this, maybe just maybe, we should be a bit less quick-tempered when it comes to Russia and a bit more critical when it comes to the US/Europe, maybe this all could have been stoped before it even started if the right people did exactly that. I am not saying that anyone here has to change his stance, Russia is doing a lot of things wrongs. But we all here know history, or most of us at least, and with every questionable system or problem particularly one that is touching nations you can always say that things are not only black and white. And no nation, seriously NO nation, be it Germany, Poland, USA would give up on Crimea if they would be in Russias position. Its simply not feasible. As sad as it sounds. But that is simply politics.

    It's just not very believable in my opinion. We are talking about foreign policiy, foreign policy is almost never about human rights or moral. Sometimes those points overlap, but foreign policy is first and foremost about interests. And the idea should be to find common interests. We have to find a compromise that gives Russia, Ukraine and Europe a benefit.

    You can't seriously believe that. It would be a suicide move. It is even less realistic then Ukraine as member of the Nato.

    But you have to think about this, the Russians have very similar concerns like you do. They fear a membership of Ukraine in the NATO and with the NATO forces directly at the Russian borders, ready to pounce at them and invading their nation. Realistic? Not really. But it is what some think. And exactly this is a big problem right now, when those two opposing concerns clash with each other where neither side is ready to trust the other one, and in that situation you have US companies and European politicians exploiting the situation, becase for one or other reason they want to gain something in the Ukraine, from piplelines, to resources and political influence. Everyone here, this includes the Russian population just as much as us Europeans is manipulated on a very large scale.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
  12. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    If you DO believe that his actions are wrong - you said yourself that Russia in Crimea is aggression against a sovereign state - why is it illegal to condemn Putin? If Europeans used to burn people alive based on the notion that their religious belief was 'wrong', does that mean they cannot condemn ISIS for public beheadings? Germans who had pro-Hitler ancestors cannot criticize racist and nationalist movements in their country?

    The difference here being - Russia has already invaded other countries' territories, they've flown even nuclear bombers close to US coast as well as over European airspace (and this was for years leading up to Ukraine). It sounds crazy, right? But Putin has done crazy things, and is doing so now.

    I don't remember NATO member states annexing Kaliningrad or flying nuclear bombers close to Moscow ignoring Russian traffic controllers, do you?
  13. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    It's funny because if it's Irak or Lybia or even the balkans is like they're not even a real country to them.
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  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Without the intention to attack anyone, but this is the kind of arrogance that the western world is always hated for, particularly by the Islamic world, and I say this not to defend anyone, but it's important to think about this for a moment. What's missing here is a different perspective. Like if you ever had the pleasure to be on the other side of the fence. I can't say that Serbia is a great nation, there is no time where I am not ashamed about my own people, up to the point where I feel more as a German, not just because of the concentration camps during the Yugoslavian Civil war, but also because of the stubborness of the people down there to realize their own issues and blaming the "others" (like the USA) for their issues. Its always the fault of the others. But as someone who has grown up with two cultures I think you simply become more critical about the western world. Really, the people are not so different, when you think about it. And I am saying this without the intention to judge anyone really. Its just how the world works, people everywhere always fight for wealth and power.

    Illegal is a strong word I would say. Of course everyone can say and think what ever they want. But, just as example I always find it interesting when someone like Obama talks about freedom and democracy or US politcians about Putin while they can't get their shit together in Guantanamo.

    At the end of the day, we are barely better compared to Russia. Germany and half of Europe has no problem to sell weapons to dictators, I mean I don't know what else you can call those regimes in Saudi Arabia. I don't understand what seperates them from Iran by the way. With the exception that they buy all of our weapons. I am not talking about history, I am talking about the hipocricy that still happens today. We condemn Putin for something that we did with Kosovo for example, more or less. For christs sake German companies had no issues to sell the ingredients for poison gas to dictators around the world, and there have been even German politicians involved. And we are getting mad about Putin?

    I just find it ironic that our nations, our politicians talk about it even though there are enough examples where we do pretty much the same - as nation. Its like a cocain addict criticizing an heroin junkie. It just doesnt seem appropiate in my opinion. Particularly when I think that we will not solve the issue with our current strategy, as how a former German general of the Airfoce explained it, sanctions are a form of helplessness, they show in the end only one thing, that there is no real strategy on how to deal with Russia and Ukraine. Particulary as Europe, France, Germany and the USA are not really on the same page.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  15. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  16. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    He describes a template. The activity is more than only Russian. Political trolls are so abundant, and most follow similar patterns. Wether they are on a payroll or not makes it a bit more intriguing, but they are litterally everywhere
  17. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    Does Europe issue false, hysterical propaganda to its citizens (along the lines of "Russia orchestrated 9/11 to force US into Iraq and Afghanistan") over national TV? Does Europe kill and jail political opposition? Does Europe support Nazi and fascist parties? Do European politicians steal billions from their people, with all resources and funds belonging to former colleagues and school mates of Merkel or Hollande? Does Europe conduct terrorism by leaving traces of radioactive substances in public places, such as cafes or restaurants? Does Europe send killers to murder government critics hiding in a sovereign state, only to have them extradited and pardoned? Does Europe arrest people on the charges of 'government spying' simply because they send a job request to a foreign country or call a national embassy?
  18. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015
  19. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
  20. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Why, they've already decided I'm pro russian and probably a pro russian troll, might as well. And because they are russian media doesnt mean their logic is necesarely flawed. What gives the UAE and US more right to intervene in Yemen than Putin un Ukraine? And if you pull the Al Quaeda card may I remind you the US gives weapons to Al Quaeda rebels in Syria, what makes Al Quaeda in Syria any less dangerous than in Yemen. I think someone holds a monopoly on what's right and what's wrong.