Is NV too much NCR-Sided?

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by gongos, Nov 25, 2010.

  1. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    The NCR is at conflict with people so they kill them, again Caesar would not kill all of them just based on their way of life he understands they do not know any better. And I believe I listed most of the tribes in F:NV, so if you have an example of a tribe that isn't destroyed by the NCR I would like to see it. Also the problem is the tribes are at a conflict with the NCR, because the NCR invades their land. This is kinda like saying that the colonists of early America where okay in murdering the Native Americans, because they acted violently to their land being taken.

    And you are right about the NCR population here is the wiki quote "he uses the above tactic to turn the small number of people under his command into a dedicated army capable of actually standing up to the superior numbers of the NCR."
     
  2. :::SILUS:::

    :::SILUS::: Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    313
    Aug 18, 2011
    Yeyyy, i won the lottery.

     
  3. Quagmire69

    Quagmire69 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    387
    Mar 17, 2011
    What about bitter springs that was far worse than nipton. In nipton adult ciminals were givin agonizing deaths, at bitter springs the ncr killed children.
     
  4. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    Did you even play the damn game? Bitter Springs was an accident; NCR tought it was a military camp, and it's completely unclear if shooting civilians was intentional or not. Plus, the Khans have been at war with NCR for 150 damn years, and Bitter Springs is the only comparable event we know of in the Republic's history, and all those who partook in it regret it to an extent, hell it made Manny and Boone quit, it's not like it was just business for them.

    Meanwhile, Nipton has been slaughtered to but a single intact person (ironically, two of said adult criminals actually survived, the whole rest of the town, which certainly included women and children, was killed) deliberately, and only as a means of terror. And Vulpes doesn't give a shit. You really want such kind of men in a position of power?


    And what the fuck else should they do? The Khans attacked them, so they stroke back. The Brotherhood attacked them (according to several sources anyway), so they stroke back. Now the Legion attacks them, so they strike back. Factions that do not openly attack NCR get off quite nicely (New Reno, Vault City, Vault 15 squatters, the Kings, the Three Families, the Boomers, the Followers...). As said, Bitter Springs is the only time we know civilians were deliberately attacked, and the Khans aren't entirely innocent in this either.

    You mean, like how he canonically kills every single grown man in conquered tribes to facilitate assimilation?

    Got 7 for ya right here. And hell, the Khans and Brotherhood just had their power broken and then were left mostly alone. And some of their best endings occur if NCR wins and the correct conditions are met. So no, it's certainly not as bad as either killing or assimilating entire tribes.

    The only such example is the war with the Khans, and they themselves had just immigrated into the Mojave, fleeing NCR territory. And when scouts and civilians of the Republic arrive, what do they do? Attack them even if they know they are badly outmatched. They brought most of their troubles upon themselves.
    [/quote]
     
  5. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    Tribals do not know any better, but already civilized criminals had their chance and showed their true character, so they were killed. A warrior defending his territory is different than a citizen who already has a good life to revert to crime.
     
  6. Threepwood

    Threepwood Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    365
    Nov 4, 2010
    1. Everyone in Nipton was killed, including innocents, just because criminals were there does not mean everyone that was killed were criminals, and for that matter most of them weren't, they're behaviour was just in moral opposition to the Legion's dogma.

    2. There probably were child deaths in Nipton.

    3. Bitter Springs was an accident, and wasn't systematic. Even if it was intentional it was a one off situation against an enemy force, not a method usually employed.
     
  7. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    It is the NCR's fault for not having enough info on the settlement. They should not have attacked if they didn't want to kill civilians.

    Quote form the wiki "Before The Legion razed the town to the ground, it was populated by gamblers, thieves, and prostitutes under the leadership of Mayor Joseph B. Steyn" Yep sounds like innocent civilians there.

    The Legion also destroys factions that are at a conflict with them, but if you do not oppose them then your elderly are the only ones killed, which is only slightly worse than the NCR method of elderly treatment which would be pay our exceedingly high taxes or go to jail. The factions you mention are not like the primitive blackfoots, who couldn't even speak English, they would all be slaughtered by the NCR. Next you mention that canonically all the adult males are killed, but the Great Kahn ending where they side with the Legion says otherwise.

    And lastly, you mention that the Great Kahns get kicked off their original lands so they move elsewhere then they get attacked again makes it okay for the NCR to want them dead.

    The NCR's democracy will not last when everyone they assimilate has a conflict of interest, where as with the appropriate amount of brutality Caesar will create a homogenous state that will survive.
     
  8. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    Word, but war is not as simple as that. And it might very well be the officers in charge knew it, but decided to proceed nonetheless. It's not regarded as a failure for nothing, you know.

    Oh, then I guess it's OK to massacre every single one of them and their children, then, the scum. And I also guess it means the Legion should kill every single person on the Strip and most of Freeside, after all, how dare they live their lives with what they have? Please read the sarcasm into this.

    What the fuck. Paying taxes is a fate second only to being brutally murdered because a despot wants to erase the culture you grew in and turn your community into either slaves or brainwashed soldiers?

    Now you just talk out of your ass. Proof?

    The Khans's didn't resist assimilation. The people of New Vegas and it's surroundings (at least part of it) most definitely will. Look at Meyers.

    They got kicked off because they had fought the NCR since it was a small village, remember that? And they didn't get attacked again; they started ambushing passing NCR people both civilian and military. I can't quote him directly, but even Papa Khan says so outright. Can't complain about having your ass kicked if you start it.

    Yea verily, no states having conflicts of interest within them have existed for long. Except, well, every single large empire in history, because that's how humans roll, and no making children learn to praise an old man and charge into gunfire won't change that. You can't unite an empire by brutality alone; even the Mongols understood this. It may be OK so long as there is a clear enemy and a strong leader, but Great Dictator Edward won't live forever, and nobody else in the Legion has the ability to actually run an empire; Lanius himself has doubts, Lucius is but an aide, and Vulpes is crazy. Plus, even if they beat NCR they will dissolve (even Ulysses, former Frumentarii, understands this, admittedly he is pretty bonkers; Marcus is a much better example, and has more experience with these questions than any other in the Wasteland), creating yet more pointless strife in a land that is now approaching order and civilization. How is that an improvement in any way?
     
  9. Nalano

    Nalano Still Mildly Glowing

    240
    Jan 20, 2009
    Double standard: NCR have to keep their noses perfectly clean if there's a hint of collateral damage, but the Legion are free to commit genocide because of a few bad eggs. And since when was gambling, prostitution and theft considered worthy of capital punishment?

    No... they raid caravans. That's how they roll. They were attacked by military forces and pushed out because they targeted civilians with deadly force. They were one of the three original raiding clans in California. Is that not reason enough?

    Because democracies fail and dictatorships survive, right? Except it's actually the exact opposite.
     
  10. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Another oen of those "NCR is worse than the Legion because they will make this that I don't have any proof they will"? New Vegas is very NCR sided, The legion is an alternative, a very brutal alternative that woul create order by using death slavery and violence at everything, the NCR offers a lot more to the people they want to assimilate, hell in the good NCR Freeside ending, Freeside remains independent while receiving help from the NCR an they remain in good terms (at least until the next game or point in the story). While every ending with the Legion and Freeside ends with them takign over the town, killing most of the Kings (mostly ebcause the Kings are idiots and try to fight them off) and enslave everyone, the Lanius ending would imply that they just razed the place to the ground because they attack the Strip "like a military target".
     
  11. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    At no point was children ever mentioned when I said gamblers, thieves, and prostitutes. The Legion does not kill children anyway. To answer another post yes these incredibly selfish acts that help nobody but themselves do need to be punished. The Legion is not about being a selfish asshole. (well maybe an asshole.) Nipton was razed, because it's people had no principles, as said in game, they served all factions without regard, powder gangers, NCR and Caesar's Legion so long as you had money. That has no place in a civilized world. The strip would not have the same moral ambiguity problems, hopefully.

    Obviously an elderly man who does not have means to provide himself money aka a strong body for labor then he will go to jail for failure to pay taxes. Note he is not murdered in the Legion because of your reasoning, because he can provide nothing to his faction so he is killed, because the Legion does not offer free rides for useless men.

    If they attack (which as seen by their abduction of Caesar, they are) the NCR will respond in kind just as they did to the Great Kahns. Caesar would also attack them, but after victory at least the women and children would be assimilated and taught a uniform language, where as we have no way of knowing what the NCR would do with them.

    Umm, if you can make people blindly run into combat with a machete and football armor, and not fear death while also never giving even slight criticism to their leader, then yah your civilization will pretty much never have internal conflict. The ending for Caesar's Legion says that civilization begins to form brutal as it was, so apparently you can form an empire with what you call brutality. Your arbitrary declaration that nobody else in the Legion is capable of leading is also laughable, especially since one of the men you mentioned does rule Caesar's Legion without any problems, so Marcus (someone who really knows nothing about the Legion) was also, not surprisingly, wrong as well.

    Lastly to answer another post no democracy has lasted longer than the roman empire, so yes dictatorships, emperors, or tyrants whatever you want to call them, have lasted longer than systems that let the masses decide the fate of the nation.

    Edit: Removed made up stuff :p
    P.S. Caesar does not immediately attacks tribe they assimilate them just as the NCR does if they are not hostile just as the NCR does.
     
  12. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    The BCR has a justice system, ever played FO2? there were policemen and jails, even a sheriff, also where does it come that the NCR would kill them because htye don't speak english? ehmmm how about stablish relationships through an interpreter, they have the Followers of the Apocalypse who are more than happy to help tribes, also there are schools in the NCR, how do you think people learn to read there? or become doctors?
    Also if the Blackfoots attack the NCR and get whiped out, isn't it the fault of the dumbasses? Caesar attacks inmediately after he discovers a tribe, they kill them and strip them of their identity, I don't think the NCR even bothers with comunicating with tribes.
    Stop making shit up circle.
     
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    This comes as a surprise because it is actually a very simple logic and quite obvious that one should make a difference between situations where there was not enough reconnaissance which lead to civilian casualties and the deliberate killing of civilians.

    As example. You can not blame the US bombers more then any German aircrafts which bombed enemy cities and killing civilians. But you can blame those commanders which gave the direct order to kill war prisoners or civilians for example. The first is a sad part of war which cant be controlled the other situations though can be and should be avoided.

    The situation with the Legion and the NCR here is that if the NCR has the possibility they at least try to avoid it. Sometimes it works other times not. We should never forget the mentality of individual commanders. While it was not the policy of the US military to kill surrendering soldiers it was not completely uncommon in some units to have the "Waffen SS members get shoot on sight". obviously this was not rare in units which either sas much combat against elite formations of the Germans or have seen enough crimes against civilians (like concentration camps).

    Now with the Legion though it is more or less a policy and violence and slavery is more often then not used as means to pacify conquered territory.

    Now tell me who do you trust more in this context ? I know who I would.

    What surprises me is how people here defend the Legion but rip the NCR apart in the same context. I mean do you throw the whole democracy and government of the US (or any european state for that matter) over board because it is not working "perfect" ? Or because there is corruption and other issues ? But we do agree that it work(ed) better then Sadams Regime. And we should not forget the NCR is a post-apocalyptic republic. And for that it is doing not bad at all. I am not saying the NCR is doing everything correctly. But I think they are one of the most viable options for Vegas. Not because they are so great but simply because Obsidian made such a poor job of offering true alternatives because the Legion is shown most of the time in a rather bad light. What ever if that is now the "true" Legion or not is rather a speculation simply because we never get the chance to see it really in action with the NCR at least we "know" and "see" many of the good areas and situations. Not to mention that most of the charismatic NPCs are on the NCR side while the Legion offers mostly only moronic/evil-comic-villain characters.


    Making them slaves to your army and indoctrination is of course much better anyway.

    The NCR requires taxes, takes land away and tires to enforce their power to the people

    Which makes them not much morse worse then to lets say most governments of the recent past. Like the US or Europe of the last century - figuratively to say that.

    Most of the empires which have been formed in brutality though have ended quite violently. There is a difference in the evolution if you deal with your own nation or different regions which do not feel connected to your views. Caesar would not be the first "conqueror" or "liberator" facing those issues I would not have been surprised if Vegas would have proved to be a constant struggle particularly when you consider how many their value their independence.

    It is difficult to say what would happen with the legion without caesar. But we can compare it to a situation like Germany of the late 30s. and early 40s. Without Hitler a civil war would have been very likely which would have destroyed much of Germanys power since there was a constant struggle between the NAZI party (political side), the airforce (Luftwaffe), Wehrmacht and the Gestapo/SS. This had to do with the individuals which sized power here, Hess with the NSDAP, Göring with the Luftwaffe the generals of the Wehrmacht (Keitel, Jodel etc.), the Kriegsmarine (naval) with Dönitz and the Gestapo/Waffen SS with Himmler. Each one of those would have tried eventually to get in power over Germany at least there would have been a huge rivalry - very similar to the situation of the Legion where all feelt loyal to caesar but not to any successor this was different to the Sovietunion of where they had as well a very strong communistic party which would elect a new leader. One could eventually imagine a very similar situation for the Legion where everyone claimed that he was the spiritual successor to Caesar if he died and thus pushing the Legion in a civil war. Something which was not rare in the roman empire either.

    Well yes and no to be honest. We should not get to deep in to that part anyway. I mean the concept of democracy might be as old like the history it self even going further then the roman republic (ancient greek). But the concept to "vote" for something is quite old as it can be traced back to German and Celtic tribes even. It was not rare for a German tribe to vote for their leader. But if you want to call that a real democracy is of course a different question.

    If we talk about the Roman empire then it changed its face quite often from a monarchy, to a republic, dynasty etc. sometimes in a very short timeframe even. Now I think the US has a quite long history at least as republic with a constitution I am not that used with the history to say if they have been already a clear democracy at that point but since the 1790s that is still quite a long time. Same for a few other states as well. Take Sweden as example.
     
  14. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    I agree I have been overemphasizing the NCR's brutality they really are doing their best to make a society that compromises on efficiency and longevity in order to create a democracy. Unfortunately democracies do not have much longevity compared to empires who are utilitarian like Caesar's legion and do not make sacrifices and compromises in order to ensure that civilization comes to the wastes. The good of the Legion is also their bad. It is their utilitarian methods. I also whole heatedly disagree the charismatic NPCs are all part of Caesar's Legion and I hope that CL makes it into Fallout 4 with no changes just more exposition on their controlled towns.

    But I do disagree with your non- blameable bombers. The bomber commanders can also be blamed for their destruction of civilians, because they know they are going to hit civilian centers, like when the U.S. killed 100,000 German citizens at Dresden even though we knew that no industrial facilities were there. even if we do aim at factories and such we know are weapons aren't accurate enough to hit just them.

    Also if Caesar dies then the Legate takes his place and no such infighting occurs. If you ask Vulpes or Lucuis who the Legate is they all respond with Caesar's second. It was quite clear who Caesar's successor was, but with Hitler that was not the case.
     
  15. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    There were two survivors in the town. Both were adults. No prisoners were taken. Do the math. The only reason we didn't see it was because of censorship.

    And exactly what defines a selfish act? A prostitute offers a service, so does a casino, and this type of entertainment was old long before the game was set. Theives (which aren't inhabitants of the town, natch) are selfish, but burning a town due to them is chatic evil stupidity at best. Anyway, the reason Nipton was burned was because ut created a wanted effecft of terror; Vulpes could have found any bullshit excuse to justify his atrocity (oh, Novac harbored ex-NCR! Oh, Primm had a casino! oh, Goodsprings had a live old man, clearly they deserved to be crucified and torched!).

    What you don't seem to understand is that this kind of behavior makes them come across as stupidly evil to almost everybody. That they employ such bullshit excuses cements this status even more.

    Like the traders in NCR's camp. I don't see them being murdered. Oh, but they are useful to the Legion, so I guess it's alright. Again, it's all excuses.

    Oh yeah, rape, murder, torture is OK, but gambling and prostitutes? amoral and uncivilized as fuck.

    You an eugenist or something? The eldery can do so much more good for a community than indoctrinated killers. And most of the old people we meet in New Vegas are far from burdens (to wit, Easy Pete, the Ranger in Novac, Loyal, Pearl, Sterling, the Remnants, hell ol' Edward himself, and I am only counting humans here).

    Arroyo is a State in the Republic. Even the Khans are mostly left alone after they are no longer a threat, and as stated by others are a very special case, I strongly doubt that Ceasar would be merciful if his faction had been at war with a group for close to 150 years.

    What about their commanders? Such a competitive system is sure to bring rivalry into this, and in a culture where problems are always solved by violence this can degenerate very quickly.

    I hope you do not talk about Lanius. He pretty much forgets the project of the Legion and turns it into a barbarian army with no purpose other than war, and he has doubts about his own faction, as evidenced by his end-game talks. And Marcus knows exactly what a visionary tyrant is like.

    The old ''the masses can't decide anything, we must impose it to them!'' that every tyrant has conveniently spouted out since forever? Get a better argument please. Also, the US democracy dates back to 1760, and is still going on. British parlementarism is even older, and widespread around the world. Rome itself was a Republic (not a true democracy, sure, but the underlying principle was there) for a long time, and was arguably most successful as one. The Mongol empire fractured into a handful of powerful, but still weaker States. The Aztecs were broken because they stepped on the toes of everybody else. Alexander, Napoleon, not to mention the Axis powers and the Soviet Union to a lesser degree, all these products of conquest always broke down, because law is what makes a State hold, not senseless violence.

    Debunked above. Compromises are an integral part of maintaining an empire. The trick is to make sure said compromise always favor you, which House and NCR understand. Machiavel says it best; to be loved is alright, to be feared is good, to be hated is a big no-no.

    Then give examples of charismatic Legion characters. You know, someone who has a personality and who you would not be reviled to meet in real-life. Lanius and Silus are out, I already singled them out (even if I would be scared as hell of Lanius and his huge sword, but thats beside the point).

    You misunderstand; it was not an offical policy. That's the difference between NCR and the Legion; when NCR does stuff like this, it's viewed as a mistake to correct. When the Legion does this, they do so with glee because Ceasar told so and it's eeeeeeevil. That's whate separates moral grayness from plain villainy; not the act, but the aftermath, the reaction and the reasoning to it (to an extent; Dresden was an atrocity too often overlooked when Allies are claimed to be the good guys).

    Choosing the brute who cares about nothing but bloodshed for a successor? that's gonna end in a pacified, prosperous empire in no time.
     
  16. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    Since thew children are taken immediately we wouldn't see them in this town.

    If the terror attack helps them win then by their moral standards (keep in mind arguing what is moral is impossible.) it is okay. Prostitution and gambling have no place when people are being eaten by deathclaws right outside your door. The priorities of the people there were misguided and there is no way to convince them otherwise. The evil you speak of is there to ensure victory a utilitarian concept you cannot seem to grasp.

    The trader you mention only trades with the Legion.

    Rape, murder, and torture are okay to ensure a stable empire.

    You bring up a good point with Caesar being old, but unfortunately since he created Caesar's Legion he is exempt from fighting so he won't die and his genius can be counted on for a while. They will murder old people of communities, because they cannot fight and will have deep-seated hatred towards the Legion. This kind of insubordination can't be tolerated.

    Yes the Kahns and 87 other tribes. Very special case indeed.

    The commanders come form the same aforementioned background. A monolithic culture which makes you have absolute loyalty to the idea that is the Legion and which is drilled into their heads every day. They do not compete, because they all work for the same thing. You may have problems like that in the NCR though.

    Marcus says the Legion will dissolve after Caesar is dead. He was wrong. The Legion still continues to eradicate all opposition just as Caesar would have done. Civilization will happen after they are done fighting, because everyone has the exact same language, mindset, morals, and culture. Something the NCR lacks and will cause problems for it's survival.

    Yes the US republic not democracy (America's founders even knew that direct control by masses is a disaster) has lasted 251 years compared to the roman empire with 1480 years, not to mention the 20-30 other empires that have over 251 years on their belt. The roman republic you speak of lasted only 500 compared to the empire.

    Debunked above, democracies have no where near the longevity of empires. Compromises are good if you are willing to bastardize principles you live by, Caesar is not.

    Lastly, I would love to meet any member of the Legion, because they all believe the same thing, but Vulpes Inculta and Caesar are my two favorites. I am currently on my fourth play through, and every time I see the crosses and hear Vulpes's voice I cannot choose a different faction.

    Funnny you mention law when the NCR is not very good at enforcing it at all. As seen by the rampant drug peddling, raids, and lastly NCRF. I agree law does hold a state and Caesar is the only one who can enforce it, as seen by the powder gangers retreat as soon as Caesar comes across the dam. They know that they can't fuck with a faction that can actually protect it's residents so they go to harass the NCR more.
     
  17. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Circle's argument is basicaly "The Evil NCR will do these things because they are evil, they are so evil they would defend themselves from attacks, But the pure hearted Legionaries would do everything I am syaign the NCR would do and it will be the best thing for humanity ever".
     
  18. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    Bullshit. Pure bullshit. There's no lamest excuse than ''oh, but it's my opinion, you can't fault my opinion, therefore I win!''. Morals can sure as hell be argued about, and if you believe otherwise, then discussion is pointless. I was going to refute your other point, but if the best you can come up with is

    Then there is no use in further debate.

    It's more like ''I live in a imaginary world where bloody, hypocritical tyrants and their enslaved, murderous soldiers are objectively better person than those who try to establish a democratic Republic and get stuff done besides killing people, and it's my opinion so you can't argue with me''. I'm done here, you guys/gals can listen to him spewing his fantasies of violence and domination if so you wish.
     
  19. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    Unfortunately if we use logic you are incorrect and illogical. Morals are entirely opinionated and are used as excuses by everyone in history a s an excuse there is no objective right or wrong.

    Do you really believe that civilization and all humanity should die because rape, murder, and torture are bad. the there is no reason to debate. You are okay with a complete destruction of humanity just so a few aren't hurt. The epitome of selfishness.

    Caesar and his Legion are the only ones trying to "get things done" Unfortunately that involves a lot of suffering to create a stable society. The NCR and you do not understand that. When you get down to it what good are human rights if your society is wiped out by the next guy over who has no concern for them? The answer is nothing your nice society is dead his cruel one is still around you accomplished nothing he will go on to lay the blueprints for a new society unopposed, which is what Caesar wants. You must unify before you do anything else or you are bound to failure.

    I am sorry for my posts to offend you. Though, I wonder if you will say the same.
     
  20. Tremer

    Tremer It Wandered In From the Wastes

    150
    Apr 5, 2010
    If you read well what he (Circle) is saying, you will realise he is not defending the legion, he only say that in the wasteland is one valid way to go.

    what surprises me, is that all of you are using the US as an example of good, and i dont talk about the real US (that is not a good example either). In the fallout world the US was one of the responsable of the great war and now the NCR is making the exact same mistakes without changing nothing. How do you think they will end?

    crni: What happen with the democracy of other country that are not US or europe ? And i forgot so help me in this one, what country help Sadan make a regim?