Plot-holes and logical inconsistencies of FO3?

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Anarchosyn, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. brandonhart61

    brandonhart61 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    113
    Dec 24, 2011
    It's suggested that the Dweller actually wandered to the mountains without a ton of equipment, but with a bunch of other dwellers who helped him establish a tribe. As for the stuff about the Chosen One using computers, energy weapons, small arms and machinery, it's just extremely unlikely.

    The whole imagery of Arroyo evoked by the game to the player is an image of a primitive tribe with little experience of technology with their champion ready to save them. Ever see some of those still remaining tribes of Africa on a documentary perhaps? It's exactly like that, hunting being it's main skill with cooperation of its hunters efforts to capture prey for the tribes consumption. While they're not animals, they are primitive in that they rely on mostly primal instincts. Their ignorance as to the true meaning of the vault suit and pip boy only serves to illustrate their primitive nature of the world (just a jumpsuit all the dwellers wore and is nothing special, and the pip boy to mainly serve as a map and store objectives).

    Even with traders coming sometimes and trading maybe something in the way of computers (also unlikely), they wouldn't learn anything, it's like a powerful alien race visiting us and giving us powerful and sophisticated technology which we would not possibly learn how to harvest. Also add in the fact they have no plug sockets and you get the idea. I guess the only thing open to debate is the brotherhood armour as wearing the armour is juxtaposed to 3's and NV's way as you had to be taught to learn it. Of course in 1 you had to join the brotherhood to gain possession of the armour and thus learn how to use it so that raises questions as to how the Chosen One learned how to use it.
     
  2. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    In Fallout 1, nobody taught you to use the PA. In fact, you could just steal it, use it, and you don't give a single fuck about how to use it, you just do it. Also, in the Fallout setting you could easily assume they were designed to don't need any prior training (even if Fallout 3 and NV states the opposite, being the setting already made, the plot hole is mostly in these games, because they don't follow what was previously stated). It would be a huge "we don't know how it actually works", but then, most of the setting of any sci fi production is in the same place.
    Plot holes are about consistency anyway, not about being possible in the real world. So, the plot hole comes from the inner contradiction, not from contradictions with real world.
     
  3. brandonhart61

    brandonhart61 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    113
    Dec 24, 2011
    It's a fair point about just being able to steal and use armour, I did mention that is is the only one open to debate but plot-holes are sometimes contradictions of the real world. Otherwise game developers wouldn't give a crap about their games being the same as the real world. That doesn't mean it's a plot hole of course if fictional elements are present like aliens ect. because that's part of the game itself. But if the people could fly without wings in Fallout 2 would you not label that as a plot-hole? Because as far as I know, flying people with no wings is not part of the real world or indeed Fallout 2 because it's physically impossible. What you're referring to is whether something is canon (which is in game consistancy), which is different from a plot hole. Of course some things can be considered inconsistent with Fallout 3, but all the games in one way or another have plot holes in some shape or form.
     
  4. DevilTakeMe

    DevilTakeMe Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    463
    Sep 12, 2011
    This is why you don't have a high skill in those abilities when you start the game, is it not? You have a natural aptitude, not a fully fleshed out history in the practice of science or medicine or weapons. It's not the same as a history of practicing a craft or picking up skills while in an isolated tribal environment.

    Fallout's character creation is certainly not like that of Traveller, where you play out a whole career and develop a full background before striking out on your own.

    The fact is that Arroyo is at least familiar with such technology and knows that it exists - again, the Pipboy and the Vaultsuit, plus the stories of the GECK and possibly some other bits of knowledge, as well as visits from traders. They cannot have gone completely without exposure at some point or another.

    This sort of thing was explored with the tribals of Honest Hearts - when Joshua Graham showed the Dead Horses how to maintain their guns, it made a world of difference to them.

    You wouldn't believe how resourceful just a little exposure to such knowledge can be.

    Try this story: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/10/kamwamba-windmill/

    With little more than some inspiration and without much of an education or resources, that young man built a windmill to power his home and draw water from a well. Mind you, he was living in conditions that were only a step or two up above the life you describe.

    It just goes to show what just a little scrap of knowledge given to the right person can accomplish.

    Now, the thing you have to argue is that Arroyo is really that ignorant that they've completely lost connection to the outside world, or if the knowledge has continued to at least trickle down through the generations. Fallout showed how tribals fell into their lives, not that they've been completely without technology in their history.

    In Fo1, you could either choose power armor as a reward or rebuild a suit yourself once you got into Lost Hills. I personally do not recall the game fast-forwarding past training for it as was the case in Fallout 3. Of course, thanks to Operation Anchorage, you also seem to download Power Armor training a la the Matrix through your PipBoy. As in, complete Operation Anchorage and you get the training for free without ever going to the Citadel.

    In Fallout 2, one of the ways you can get Power Armor is to "join" the Enclave and con a few members of the Enclave into thinking you are one of the new recruits. It's not out of the question to be there long enough to get a little bit of the training. This being a military thing, I'm more than sure that there's a manual and a little placard with an IKEA-like instruction diagram on how to equip and operate it.

    Of course, if one is going to make an excuse, one can also say that putting in a training bit was simply left out to get the game to market (like much of Fallout 2).
     
  5. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    Hmmm, no, I wouldn't consider it a plot hole. I would consider it a fantasy game instead of a sci fi game. But it will not be a plot hole just because of the contradiction with real world. Otherwise, games like Baldur's Gate or the whole D&D and derivatives are plot holes theirselves.
     
  6. DevilTakeMe

    DevilTakeMe Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    463
    Sep 12, 2011
    Plot holes are things that are completely unanswered.

    A frequently cited plot hole is Vault 87:

    In Fallout 3 once you retrieve the G.E.C.K. in Vault 87, you are ambushed and captured by Enclave troops before you get out. Problem is, the main door of Vault 87 is broken and surrounded by deadly radiation, so the only way in is the back door through Little Lamplight.

    However, the residents of Little Lamplight probably wouldn't have let the Enclave troops in, and there's nothing to suggest the Enclave forced their way through.

    The explanations are myriad, but none have been given much evidence by the game itself. Maybe the Little Lamplighters hid. Maybe the Enclave did use the front door, etc.
     
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    the whole game is a plot hole
     
  8. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Level 27 Wizard Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Maybe we should just post a picture of Fallout 3 and leave it at that.
     
  9. brandonhart61

    brandonhart61 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    113
    Dec 24, 2011
     
  10. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Level 27 Wizard Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    @Brandonhart: But the thing is many games are more ridiculous about their plot holes than others. I don't expect a game to make TOTAL sense, but at least on a basic level. The Vault 87 reference was one I wondered about personally. Little Lamplight still takes the cake for most worthless location in a Fallout game ever.
     
  11. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    Well, that's the whole meaning of "natural aptitude"... I myself learnt to use a computer by myself when I was a child. And I didn't know how to read yet. So, being literate should be more than enough to be ABLE to learn by yourself how to use a computer.
    About all the game having plot-holes, I'm sure you're right. The point is avoiding central plot holes. If the central story goes around many plot holes, then there is a problem. I really don't care if the Enclave made the ambush by entering from Little Lamplight, but I do care about how there is no motivation for the mutants to be berserker AND to capture people to turn them into mutants at the same time. Because the main motivation for the BoS to be around there (besides the tech, which they might have studied without ever wandering outside their HQ) is fighting that mutants, and there is no explanation about why are they so annoying and idiots at the same time.
     
  12. brandonhart61

    brandonhart61 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    113
    Dec 24, 2011
    We're talking about tribals who aren't literate and have probably never seen a book before in their lives. Little Lamplight is indeed a stupendously stupid location and the question of how the Enclave invaded vault 87 is beyond me but what can I say, I didn't say that the game wasn't full of plot holes. I said they all had some one way or another. But the stuff about the mutants is that they aren't the same ones from the West, they were bred through vicious experiments
     
  13. DevilTakeMe

    DevilTakeMe Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    463
    Sep 12, 2011
    You really need to cut down on your quotes, by the way.

    What would happen to the Dead Horses if Joshua Graham were not there to show them how to fix what little technology they did have? They'd probably lose what technology they did have and wind up in a state much like Arroyo.

    Simple logic.

    That you don't need to work with computers your whole life to at least understand them just enough to be able to get a feel for it.

    Are you going to be an instant expert? No. The fact that you aren't automatically at 100% skill when you start out pretty much solidifies that. But can you pick up the skills as you go along? Sure.

    Computers aren't as complicated as some like to think. How do you think you're operating the Pipboy, afterall, well enough to insert holodisks to read or, more importantly, enter in the notes into your log of your adventure?

    That's a start, wouldn't you agree? How did the Village Elder come across the story of the GECK? She read it from a holodisk, showing at least she has a very basic understanding of how to use the thing. And considering she is the Chosen One's mother as well as the daughter of the Vault Dweller, and the person who bestows the GECK and the Vault suit to the Chosen One, that the Chosen One might pick up a few ideas from accessing such technology?

    It's looking less and less like a plot hole to me.

    A plot hole would be the Chosen One having no such access to a pipboy or holodisks, or the stories of a GECK, and suddenly being ejected from a primitive society that has long since obliterated any and all traces of technology from their knowledge base and their world, and being thrust into a world of future tech with zero preparation.

    But they haven't.
     
  14. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Level 27 Wizard Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    @Brandonhart: Yes but the mutants have no command structure at all. Who is leading them? What is their purpose? How are they so prevalent throughout the wasteland when they have no leader? Who among them decided to start making more mutants? I found the mutants to be a glaring plot hole in the game. They were thrown in with little thought about why....
     
  15. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    About being illiterate, that's never stated in game, and I already said I learnt to use the computer being still illiterate. Actually, I'm almost sure they're not. About Little Lamplight, I consider it mostly a flavour site, so, except for being the entrance for Vault 87, I consider it mostly an easter egg. A boring one, but just that. About the mutants, I'm aware about them being from other strain, I already said that in this thread. That is not enough to explain how they're almost trogs but can control the machines they use to turn people into mutants. They don't seem to remember who they were before, but somehow they know HOW they became mutants, and have some urge to turn other people in mutants. That's what I can't understand about it. The fact they're other strain explains the agressive behaviour, but doesn't explain how they're idiots and smart enough to control the machines, and how they seem to be unorganized monsters but has that urge in common.
     
  16. aboniks

    aboniks Still Mildly Glowing

    204
    Jan 17, 2012
    @ little lamplight

    I thought it was obvious. The enclave couldn't actually consist ONLY of adults, they have to keep the kids somewhere. Why not just leave them totally unsupervised in a hole in the ground? With super mutants. It's like Survivor, only stupider. This would explain how the kids actually got there in the first place.

    Kids couldn't stop them from following you in, even if they wanted to. It would also explain Big Town, which was obviously populated by people too stupid even to be conscripted. There's no way you'd get that many useless morons in one community without an outside influence throwing the statistical curve off.

    Or the enclave could, you know, fly to vault 87 on a vertibird, thus bypassing the long walk through the rads, drop a bot down to cut the vault door open, pop some rad-x, rappel down to the entrance, and be all over you like stink on a ghoul.

    Or both. Or maybe they just fast traveled there. See, it's simple to explain these things when you're willing to exploit the other holes in the plot. :P
     
  17. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Level 27 Wizard Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Best explanation ever... :lol:
     
  18. camil2003

    camil2003 First time out of the vault

    88
    Dec 28, 2009
    *tries to avoid being dragged into the debate*

    Just leaving these mods here for fallout 3 and new vegas as they improved the games very much.

    NV Error Corrections and Bug Fixes - Reduce CTD

    http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=44204

    Helps the game alot so New vegas won't crash as much.

    http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16490

    Fallout 3 version by the same guy.. His new vegas version is on going but his fallout 3 version is pretty much finished.


    Also f3 and new vegas have bugged save systems so it would be a good idea to turn auto save off and get these mods.

    http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=36730

    http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3729


    Anyway on topic(can't resist).
    I can understand people's reactions to fallout 3 as the main slapper to me was the horrible writing that resembled a Micheal bay movie and I played older Rpg's like arcanum, bauldurs gate series and the like but I managed to turn my brain off and endure it for a bit until I went to New vegas where the writing and characterization was better and made fallout 3's flaws that more apparent. I mean come on look at the *intelligence* options in 3.
     
  19. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Well, no. This is totally implausible. If you have played FO3 you should know that bots don't have the "walk through a irradiated zone and perform a simple task" command.
     
  20. aboniks

    aboniks Still Mildly Glowing

    204
    Jan 17, 2012
    Mm. Yeah, good point. I guess they'd have to blow it open with a mini nuke. Which would totally make sense, since the previous direct hit from a nuke weakened it so much. Kind of like when someone asks you to open a jar of pickles, and then claims that they 'loosened it up for you'.