The FPS rpg, can it really work?

To be fair though Obsidian had only Bethesdas work as reference here, like their shitty combat and engine. I am pretty sure they could have delivered a much better game if they had the chance to create everything from scratch, with enough time of course. That way even with the improvements they did, it still had F3s mechanic and gameplay at its core. Who knows what kind of FPS RPG they would have made if they had no limitations to work with.
 
Because, relevant.

[video]

He's completely wrong, though. And I'm not sure how he could have made this video without realising how wrong he is. Clearly you can't say for sure that you could make a difficult climb, otherwise it wouldn't be a difficult climb (unless you're a skilled climber and have plenty of time, in which case you get an automatic 20).
 
They didn't have branching stories but there was tons of FPS RPG in the 90s and even late 80s.
Take Ultima, Might & Magic, Lands Of Lore, Eye Of the Beholder etc...
They were FPS RPG with not really any differences with Gothic/TW3/TES etc, beside the continuous gameworld which isn't really such a great idea.
(not blaming those who like it, but they don't need to put continuous gameworld (calling them open world) in every new marketed game)

I won't say they are bad, but they aren't better than isometric either. It is just a matter of design. Some enjoy one while some enjoy the other.
 
Damn, I remember wanting to play Lands Of Lore. That was when Westwood did more than just RTS. Never did get to play it.
 
Because, relevant.

[video]

He's completely wrong, though. And I'm not sure how he could have made this video without realising how wrong he is. Clearly you can't say for sure that you could make a difficult climb, otherwise it wouldn't be a difficult climb (unless you're a skilled climber and have plenty of time, in which case you get an automatic 20).
Oh good, somebody else said it. My mind was just blown away when I watched that piece of shit last night. (The video and his argument, not the person. Never saw or heard of him before.) An interesting idea, at best, but so are many fan fiction concepts that people throw around. They have the best of intentions, but ultimately they're just crazy at the end of the day.

Also, NOT relevant in the fucking slightest.

A rolled dice is literally testing the likelihoods. He's right that the character doesn't envision dice to test their odds, and that there's a high likelihood that they don't go to a task with an expectation of failing. But the dice ARE there to represent the CHANCE of failure. Not the character's agency of recognizing that they cannot climb that wall. Otherwise why would they have bothered? And no, the answer is not "because they have no other choice." That ignores the ENTIRE premise of RPGs: player choice. They are DERIVED by what the player wants to do, and countless many "dice rolls" (whether physical or invisible and calculated) were attempted by players simply wishing to try something they had no idea how well they would do. What he fails to understand is that this is what DMs are for, or why older CRPGs hid their calculations from the player. Neither the player NOR the character they're role playing are aware of their chances of success, they only have a notion.

For example: I can remember one D&D Campaign I played many years ago where I tried to talk my way around some NPC giving a quest, and each time I tried the DM had me make a charisma role. Later on I found out that the dice roles were a formality, because the NPC had such ASTRONOMICALLY high charisma that it would've been mathematically impossible for me to persuade him to do anything (he was a boss character, basically). I didn't know that, my character didn't know that. We both simply assumed that since the character I was playing was very intelligent and charismatic that it would be possible to use his way with words to find out if this NPC had ulterior motives, or was hiding anything. In no ways was this like that hypothetical wall that my character "knew he could climb". This was an NPC my character (and I) felt like our chances of persuading were decently high enough, and it was absolutely false. We never stood a chance. That bastard fooled me just as well as he fooled EVERYONE else, because the dice roles made it impossible for me to learn otherwise. I could see my own dice roles, but I couldn't see the DM's. That's the major difference this guy is missing.

It IS all about probability and chance. That's why we role dice- a gambler's tool -at all! Maybe I could find his claims less nonsensical if he'd argued that each side of the dice represented some alternate reality where different events tied to each attempted action took place, and the dice determined which reality we would experience. But that would still be arguing something I consider to be absolute nonsense anyway! So basically... yeah, dude has no idea what he's talking about.
 
Can you even "Know you can do it"? Only a fool doubts nothing,there is always a chance of failure in everything. His example with videos makes no sense either, what if the rendering fails? The Internet falls? He sprains his ankle while recording because he stepped wrong? The camera has a short circuit, etc.
Dice rolls are also affected by character stats so it's not completely random unless you are trying to do an action that is out of your character's skills. Failure also keeps it interesting, critical failures can really spice up a play session, same with critical successes on completely retarded moves.
 
Damn, I remember wanting to play Lands Of Lore. That was when Westwood did more than just RTS. Never did get to play it.

Lands of Lore is just about the best dungeon crawler I've ever played. EoB series fans often think of 'Throne of Chaos' as the *real* EoB3.

I've played it recently, and IMO it's not aged badly at all.

http://www.gog.com/game/lands_of_lore_1_2

You just introduced me to something I don't recall hearing about. I may just give it a shot, but if it is anything like Might and Magic 3, I won't stand much of a chance. Well, not without hair pulling and a bit of guidance.
 
You just introduced me to something I don't recall hearing about. I may just give it a shot, but if it is anything like Might and Magic 3, I won't stand much of a chance. Well, not without hair pulling and a bit of guidance.
Westwood and SSI had some kind of falling out, and the EOB team went off and made their own, while SSI tried their hand at making EOB3.

Lands of Lore isn't D&D based, but it's basically Eye of the Beholder 2 in a different land, with a different story; and with fully voiced PCs and NPCs in the CD version.

Lands of Lore 2 (bundled with it from GoG) had a really ruined release. It took too long to in development. It was a very clever realtime 2.5d game, but when it made it to market, it was competing with 3D games; and the [live] acting can be a bit poor... I still liked it quite a bit though. Lands of Lore 3 seemed pretty bad; but I've not progressed enough in it to really judge.
 
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The name reminded me of Lords of Magic which is something else entirely. So yeah the FPS RPG question has been answered. I shall leave to further avoid derailing the thread. :lol:
 
Can you even "Know you can do it"? Only a fool doubts nothing,there is always a chance of failure in everything. His example with videos makes no sense either, what if the rendering fails? The Internet falls? He sprains his ankle while recording because he stepped wrong? The camera has a short circuit, etc.
Dice rolls are also affected by character stats so it's not completely random unless you are trying to do an action that is out of your character's skills. Failure also keeps it interesting, critical failures can really spice up a play session, same with critical successes on completely retarded moves.
Ah, critical failures. Still makes me chuckle when I think back at how ecstatic the groups would get if ever anyone threw a 1. Even better, a double 1. They weren't terribly inventive with the scenarios they came up with the reflect the monumental scale of fuck-up that was about to transpire. Usually something like "you swing your axe and accidentally cleave the person standing to your right... and break your axe" or "somehow the arrow ricochets off the walls in the room just perfectly that it comes back and strikes you in the groin". But the glee with which they employed these catastrophic scenarios was infectious.
 
Can you even "Know you can do it"? Only a fool doubts nothing,there is always a chance of failure in everything. His example with videos makes no sense either, what if the rendering fails? The Internet falls? He sprains his ankle while recording because he stepped wrong? The camera has a short circuit, etc.
Dice rolls are also affected by character stats so it's not completely random unless you are trying to do an action that is out of your character's skills. Failure also keeps it interesting, critical failures can really spice up a play session, same with critical successes on completely retarded moves.

Those don't work for me in a First Person Perspective however. And I love games that work like Baldurs Gate, Planescape or if you want Fallout. Dice rolls with an FPS gameplay though? I don't know.
 
Daggerfall was very close to its PnP rules with a lot of random number generation and saving rolls. The combat was hella awkward and frustrating, though, mostly because the engine was not very good. Daggefall was just too ambitious, I think. Morrowind improved on quite a lot, but the combat was still annoying at times. It just doesn't feel good in-game if you clearly see your sword or arrow hitting your target but you don't actually hit it because some RNG decided that it didn't work. Or if your spellcasting fails over and over again because your skill is low.
FPS gameplay, at least to me, is all about player skill, and not character skill. Taking that element away by adding RNG instead of physics just feels weird to me. It can work, to some degree, but it won't be actually good, at least not in melee combat. It works a little better with guns, I think.
 
Maybe it could work if everything has a correct animation. Like if you could see what is happening in front of you. Instead of your arrow sticking out of the enemy doing no damage a critical failure could be a problem with your bow, or gun if you want to use F3/F4 as example. Imagine if a critical falure meant that your gun jammed and your charcter would perform an animation to fix it. If he's good enough with repair, he managed to do it, if not, the gun broke down and you have to use a melee weapon or a different gun and so on.

The problem is just, it would require a lot of work. You can not make animations for every possible scenario. Making all the correct animations and such. Games like Fallout 1 or Planescape are abstract enough to leave room for your imagination. That's one of the reason why they have describtions. That is what FPS games miss here. The abstraction and distance between the player and his character in the game.

FPS RPGs will always feel clunky and unrewarding for me except if they go full-shooter with their gameplay. This might not have been so much of an issue with the first FPS RPGs. But I never played those, so I can not say anything about them. It was never appealing to me. But I feel that it doesn't work very well with the way how visuals have evolved today.
 
It doesn't seem like you quite understand what a critical failure is... Failure is missing your attack, your attack being deflected, your gun jamming when you try to fire "during your turn". But CRITICAL failure is that 5% (and subsequent 0.25%) chance that NOT ONLY did you fail, but your failure was so colossal in scale that it's going to embolden your enemies, or damage you. Situations that feel as though they defy all logic or even the laws of physics because of how bad they were. That's why my description of uninventive DM descriptions for critical failure was that arrow perfectly ricocheting back and hitting yourself in the crotch. You hit yourself. It just doesn't sound like it would happen with a BOW. But that's what a critical failure is.

Losing your ammo? Eh, I guess that would be decent for a critical failure, but that would probably just be the result of a 5% successful roll and a 0.25% failure roll, a LESS-critical critical failure. But things like your gun EXPLODING in your hand and crippling you until you can see a doctor would be much appropriate of critical failures. Classic Fallout represented these by losing all your ammo or even breaking your gun, and in the case of explosives them blowing up at your feet instead of just firing and missing. But traditionally they're monumental fuck ups.

But yes, the amount of programming would be ASTRONOMICAL in order for a FPP game to display all of these programmed actions. It's the same programming dilemma that people observe when characters don't have the exact animation while walking up a small flight of stairs... or hell, a SINGLE step, even. In most cases, it just doesn't quite look right- tips of feet clipping into the stairs, an odd jerkiness to their posture as they ascend the steps. But that's JUST animating the action of a character MOVING, depending on the coding for their environmental interaction with a small slope! Applying the amount of work it would take for a dynamic positioning to calculate the animations of the characters based on every possible conceivable success or failure in attacks is just impossible. The best case scenarios would be that the number of different animations is noticeably short and thus the actions get very repetitive, or the whole thing looks awkward as fuck as characters perform the animation of bending their upper torsos backwards to dodge a thrown punch... from a guy slightly to their right, and it looks like their fist still goes right through their face anyway.

It just wouldn't work. Physically possible under all the laws of the universe? Sure, it could be done. But put into practice, it means millions of lines of code, thousands of hours per coder for several hundred coders, only for all that work to get scrapped when the direction of the game changes (which happens all the time), and more details which amount to it being a practically impossible task. And all for what? To make a format that we can all acknowledge is NOT SUITED for this type of gameplay APPEAR as though it's possible to host the gameplay adequately. It reminds me of that Simpsons skit with the obnoxiously loud juicer that takes an entire bag of oranges and makes a drop of juice while the guys pitching it smile with empty support. We all know it doesn't work, so let's drop the false smiles.
 
And thats why I brought up imagination.

FPS, shows you everything so a lot of resources are wasted on shiny like dust motes and useless teacups.

Level generation and playtime is also effected because distance and size must all be realistic, which usually results in tons of immaculately rendered sand and an aweful lot of empty, useless, but beautifally made caves.

Big structures suffer from excess rooms and useless shit used to decorate them. The players has to travel through all this garbage wasting a ton of time. But I will guarantee travel time will be billed as 'gameplay length'.

Thats why, IMO, FPS just doesn't mix well with PNP RPGs, which are most of the RPGs I love.
 
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